CPA clone (again!)

[Anna]

... still trying for that elusive CPA taste...

I've done 2 now with re-cultured Coopers commercial yeast - one with a late POR addition - NBG! One with no hop additions ('cause apparently CPA only has bittering POR, no late hops) - still NBG! (Pretty awful actually,although OH reckons its closer to the Green than past attempts.) Dr Smurto did explain on another post why you can never get an exact clone with a kit, but do you think I might get a bit closer if I tried wheat malt instead of the usual LDME ?:

Anna

[warra48]

I've never tried to clone Coopers. I will say that attempting to clone a commercial brew is extremely difficult, even more so if you are using a kit or extract. Even AG brewers struggle to get close approximations of commercial brews.

I did once try to make a brew with all LDME, 250 gr crystal, Pride of Ringwood flowers, and recultured Coopers yeast. Turned out darned awful, and I drank it through gritted teeth as a lesson to myself.

I don't know to what extent you built up your starter of Coopers yeast. In my case, I didn't build it any where near enough, and the brew suffered from being underpitched. Underpitching will produce some undesirable elements you don't want in your brew. A starter such as yours need to be built up in stages.

This is only one thought, and I may be totally off the rails, but I am a believer in pitching good sized starters. For example, I have a Munich Dunkel fermenting, and I pitched the slurry from a 4½ litre starter from a fresh tube of WLP838, built up in two stages.

I'd be interested to see others' thoughts. I'm not sure about wheat. DrSmurto may have a better idea of the make up of Coopers ales, I don't have the famous Coopers' "blackboard" recipe breakdown anymore, perhaps he has.

[Anna]

Thanks Warra. "Darned awful" is an understatement - Doc was speaking of the "wet cardboard" taste which is caused by oxidation - I'm pretty sure my first CPA clone wasn't oxidised (the 2nd one probably IS - lil' accident... ), but I reckon it tastes like wet cardboard anyway. I've been talking to Doc throughout the whole re-culture experiment and it seems I probably have underpitched (even tho I followed the instructions on the Coopers website to the letter). Very disappointing!

Apart from all that, from memory the CPA kit is apparently 30% (?) wheat malt, and I had such success with the JSGA clone when I used all liquid wheat malt extract, I just wondered what it would be like if I just repeated that without the Amarillo additions - which OH thought tasted like perfume and wouldn't drink! (No hope there, eh?)

Anna

[Bum]

For my money, the CPA tin is nothing at all like an off the shelf CPA. Perhaps if you used an AG clone as the basis for an extract brew you might get closer.

[Anna]

You are SOOOOOS right Bum! Any suggestions?

[Bum]

I'm not a huge drinker of CPA but I do know there are plenty of well regarded recipes about the place. Have a search around and then maybe bring a recipe or two into here for some advice from our betters on how to turn them into a close-ish approximation as an extract (because even without a kit you'll still have trouble nailing it without going AG).

Oh yeah, I know this has been pointed out before but it really does warrant repeating - following the instructions given by Coopers "to the letter" is not often the best way to make good beer.

[Anna]

Yep! Got that.

[hirns]

"This is only one thought, and I may be totally off the rails, but I am a believer in pitching good sized starters. For example, I have a Munich Dunkel fermenting, and I pitched the slurry from a 4½ litre starter from a fresh tube of WLP838, built up in two stages. "

I second the large starter suggestion. I do remember reading somewhere that Coopers pitch a ridiculously large amount of yeast at around 16C from memory and that the fermentation is over in around three days or four days. Sorry I can't recall where I read that to check its accuracy.

In the past I found that the closest that I got with the kit was with using the packet yeast and the BE2 as per instructions and not the recultured yeast. The beer ended up with that authentic subtle banana lolly taste. Sadly it was before my days of detailed record keeping and temp control. But I'm sure the result was from the kit yeast and at a specific temp. If I had to guess I would say a warmer 23 or 24C. I'd still go with Bum's idea and use the recultured yeast bearing in mind that the temp you ferment at could obviously be limiting your success.

I'm about to hopefully do an all grain Cooper's Pale ale this weekend (Andrew Clark's recipe). Will let you know how it ends up.

Hirns.

[drsmurto]

"This is only one thought, and I may be totally off the rails, but I am a believer in pitching good sized starters. For example, I have a Munich Dunkel fermenting, and I pitched the slurry from a 4½ litre starter from a fresh tube of WLP838, built up in two stages. "

I second the large starter suggestion. I do remember reading somewhere that Coopers pitch a ridiculously large amount of yeast at around 16C from memory and that the fermentation is over in around three days or four days. Sorry I can't recall where I read that to check its accuracy.

In the past I found that the closest that I got with the kit was with using the packet yeast and the BE2 as per instructions and not the recultured yeast. The beer ended up with that authentic subtle banana lolly taste. Sadly it was before my days of detailed record keeping and temp control. But I'm sure the result was from the kit yeast and at a specific temp. If I had to guess I would say a warmer 23 or 24C. I'd still go with Bum's idea and use the recultured yeast bearing in mind that the temp you ferment at could obviously be limiting your success.

I'm about to hopefully do an all grain Cooper's Pale ale this weekend (Andrew Clark's recipe). Will let you know how it ends up.

Hirns.

I said that - as for its accuracy, i pinched it from information gleaned on their website and personal emails.

Coopers Pale Ale does not have a banana lolly taste. It has a subtle apple and pear ester. If you ferment either the kit yeast or re-cultured coopers yeast at 24C you will make a banana beer. Ferment low and pitch a large amount of yeast - 16C is where i aim with this yeast. As others have noted, you need to pitch the right amount of yeast. This is much harder to do than simply using dry yeast.

Anna - i would recommend you repeat your previous batch using either a larger amount of re-cultured coopers yeast (or some from a previous batch if you saved the yeastcake) and try and keep the ferment at or below 18C. Dont add any POR if you are using a tin of bittered extract.

I make an aussie ale using the Coopers yeast and with only a POR bittering addition but bulk up the malt flavours as i find CPA too thin. CSA is more to my taste.

[Anna]

Yes Doc - I will try it again soon with a fresh LARGER re-culture. I was never happy with the last re-cultured yeast cake so I chucked it out. What about my idea to sub wheat malt for the LDME?

[drsmurto]

CPA contains a small amount of wheat but i would assume there is enough in the tin of Coopers Pale Ale.

So no, don't add the wheat malt if you want to clone CPA.

[Planner]

... still trying for that elusive CPA taste...

I've done 2 now with re-cultured Coopers commercial yeast - one with a late POR addition - NBG! One with no hop additions ('cause apparently CPA only has bittering POR, no late hops) - still NBG! (Pretty awful actually,although OH reckons its closer to the Green than past attempts.)

Anna

Mine turned out not as a CPA clone, but still a very nice drop. I used a POR aroma addition as you did, as a result some of my mates who don't normally drink HB commented on the quality, and drank more than the usual sip (quite a lot more by the empties the following morning)
The recultured yeast has also found it's way into Boonies LCPA, (a fine drop with US-05) to see how it changes, I'll try a couple this weekend.
This weekend if I find time the CPA yeast should also end up in the DSGA that I need to brew to replenish stocks.

Planner