First Partial Mash Recipe Advice, Please

[Bum]

First error I had Weyermann Munich 11, not caramunich 11

Not really a mistake, as such, just not according to plan. The silver-lining here is that munich II is base malt - this will add a bit more depth to your beer, IMO, and also make the amber work better for you in the mash. Let us know how it turns out.

[drsmurto]

Firstly, thank #$%^ it was Munich II and not caramunich II.

Caramunich is a crystal malt and anymore than 10% in a beer will be sweet, cloyingly sweet. Even more so in a beer that contains decent quantities of extract.

I personally think 5% is about the max you need.

A lot of people get stuck by reading american recipes that contain large amounts of crystal and that stems from the fact the american crystal malts arent as sweet as ours.

So the result of the fact you used munich is that you have a very nice looking recipe. Don't worry too much as it takes time to get to know what different malts, crystal malts, roasted malts etc do and how much to use. I have been brewing AG for 3 years now and have been obsessively reading/learning the whole time. I am still learning and have used only a fraction of the malts/hops and yeast out there.

Your efficiency is low. Very low. How are you crushing the grain? We need to sort that out for you so you get more oomph out of the mash and more of the malty goodness.

[rotten]

Grain is pre-crushed at the moment. I tried to crush with a stainless fresh pasta maker and it didnt work. I read about about giving a quick burst in a food processor, maybe that could help.
Cheers

[drsmurto]

Are you mashing for at least 60 mins?

That low an efficiency means you are leaving behind a majority of the sugars.

Once you drain the mash do you add the sparge water back to the grain and let it 'steep' for 5 mins or so before draining again?

EDIT - maybe you could add half the sparge water, let it steep, drain and then repeat with the rest of the sparge water.

[rotten]

Are you mashing for at least 60 mins?

That low an efficiency means you are leaving behind a majority of the sugars.

Once you drain the mash do you add the sparge water back to the grain and let it 'steep' for 5 mins or so before draining again?

EDIT - maybe you could add half the sparge water, let it steep, drain and then repeat with the rest of the sparge water.

Mash for 60 min. Last night i volauf all of the first runnings. I had intended to sparge for 10 mins, getting late at that stage and I just forgot! Sparge with 10 ltr water @ 75c straight through strainer. That explains it probably.
Cheers

[SuperBroo]

My mash has become pretty simple, and i hit 75% every time now.

MASH IN...
- Mash for 60 mins

MASH OUT...
- Mash out by adding boiling water (Count how much as you put it in) and stir without aerating. Stop adding boiling water when Mash temp is at 75.6c. (I usually require about 7-8 Litres to achieve this).
This way you always get your mash out temp spot on without having to do any calculations.
- Leave for 10 mins at 75.6c.

FIRST RUNNINGS...
- Gently but thoroughly stir then Vorlauf and drain first runnings to kettle.

SECOND RUNNINGS...
- Measure how much wort is in the kettle, and then add whatever amount of water at 83c is required to reach my boil volume (with 29.5 L preboil volume I end up with 22 Lts clean fluid in fermenter, I dont waste a drop and its clear as crystal in the fermenter).
- Leave for 5 mins.
- Gently but thoroughly stir without aerating, Vorlauf and drain to kettle.
- Start the boil.


Adding my boiling water at mash out until 75.6c is achieved, takes the maths out of getting the mash out water temp correct, I have an urn and stuck a scale on the side of it, so its really easy to get the volumes right.

I was scared to death of all the numbers at the start, I dont stress at all now, I just keep it simple as above, and its very consistent on the temperatures / volumes.


Cheers,
chris

[SuperBroo]

sorry, just realised ,this is a partial mash thread, i was talking AG (too keen)

[rotten]

Sounded good though. Moving that way soon, just waiting on a large enough esky and another pot!
Cheers

[drsmurto]

Grog - you can change the numbers in beersmith.

75.6 is a part number as its a direct conmversion from 168F.

Beersmith is written by an american so its based on on outdated imperial measurements....

I use 78C as the mashout temp.

Same goes for mash temps, dont let beersmith dictate things to you. eg 65.6C for a light body. I use 65 or 66.

The error in measuring the temp is close to +/- 1C so trying to measure fractions of a degree are pointless.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. your mash and sparge method do sound very good though. Even using the german vernacular.

[SuperBroo]

Cheers Doc,

Thanks for that, I'll change settings...

[rotten]

Ah, yes. Beerbelly sells DrSmurto's Golden Ale as a pack. Well, 2 versions of it. One is all weyermann malts which is what i used originally (and what you have bought) and there is also a JW version.

But what you have is a full size 23L AG pack that has already been (crushed?) mixed up so you need to brew a 23L AG batch. You can't just weigh out a portion of it and do a partial.

This is fine as you can do a slightly concentrated boil and then dilute back to 23L after the boil or do a split boil. I do concentrated boils when doing double batches so i can help you out with the calculations.

Assuming you have the hops and yeast as well then you are set to go.

When you get your 19L pot we can work out how to go about it.

If you lived a tad closer i would drop by and help you out.

G'day doc is this offer still valid? The calculations that is.
I have a 60 ltr mash tun (techice cooler) delivered today. I haven't made a manifold yet but that can wait, it has a drain plug which i will fit a tap too for now. At my disposal are 1 x 19 ltr pot, 1 x 13 ltr pot and 3 to 5 ltr pots if needed. I can physically boil 25 ltrs in those two big pots, 15 in 1, 10 in other. I also have plenty of Amarillo and a choice of yeast, one maybe contentcious. US-05 yeastcake made to 1 ltr starter to pitch, or new pack S-04.

Cheers

[drsmurto]

A quick buzz through beermsith tells me that the 4.5kg pack for 23L assumes 75% efficiency.

I doubt very much you will get that so lets knock that back to 65% and aim for a 20L batch which should give you an OG of 1.047.

Since you are doing 20L instead of 23L you don't need to do a concentrated boil, just split into 2 pots.

The way i would do this would be to sparge into a fermenter to 'measure' the 25L you will need pre-boil that way you are boiling the same OG wort and not screwing up IBU calculations.

I need the AA% of your amarillo and if you PM me your email address i can email you the PDF printout/brewsheet of the beersmith file i will create.

Until then, what i have come up with is to mash in with 13L of water at 75C which when added to the grain should drop to about 66C assuming your day time temps are similar to mine.

Stir to ensure there are no dough balls and the grain and water are thoroughly mixed.

If you can, wrap the entire esky in blankets or an old sleeping bag to minimise the temp loss. Walk away for 60 mins. Add 10L of boiling water to raise the temp to ~78C (called mashout) and stir. Let it sit for 5 mins.

Recirculate (vorlauf) a few litres of wort until it runs clear. This assume you have some sort of manifold set up by then. If not i would suggest lining the esky with the same material used by the Brew in a bag fanboys.

Drain off the liquid into a fermenter. There should be roughly 15L.

Add another 10L of water at ~80C, stir and let sit for 5 mins. Recirculate and drain.

There should be 25L with an SG of 1.038.

Split this into 15L and 10L and bring to the boil.

This is where i need your AA% of the amarillo so i can work out exactly how much you need to achieve the desired IBU of 30.

And i would be using the US05 yeastcake for this beer.

[rotten]

BIG Thankyou to Drsmurto & everyone else who has contributed to my learning on this forum. First All Grain last night, what a marathon. Didn't all go to plan but I learnt heaps. Main problems were mash extraction even though temps etc were correct, and the hassle or inability to boil in two pots filled to capacity. I mashed twice and now know that before I do AG again i need a manifold in my mashtun and a much bigger pot with gas heat, not halogen. Just couldn't boil quick enough or strong enough. New cooler is a perfect mashtun, 66c mash temp- 1 hr later 65.7c, just needs to be finished.
Cheers and thanks again.

[SuperBroo]

Howdy Rotten,

With your manifold, I suggest you just get one of those braided water hoses at Bunnings for about 7 bucks.
Then strip the ends and pull the rubber out.
They do a really good job in the mash tun, and are the simplest to make by far.
My mash efficiency is 75% minimum.

I got heaps of my AG stuff on ebay...
- Gas burner with regulator.
- 20L Urn, but you can heat you own water in your pot, an Urn is more convenient though.
- Temperature controllers.
- Waiting an a refractometer now (simpler than a hydrometer).

My 40 Litre pot I got from the brewshop, it was cheaper there.

Good luck with it all, its awesome fun, and makes awesome beer.

Cheers,
Chris

[rotten]

- Waiting an a refractometer now (simpler than a hydrometer).

Chris

For risk of sounding like an idiot, please explain? refractometer measures brix which is sugar, how would i convert the figures?
Cheers

[drsmurto]

Refractometers are simpler in some circumstances but more difficult in others.

Pre-fermentation a refractometer is easy to use. A single drop is all you need to get a reading and there are many calculators available to convert Brix to SG (some refractometers have this built in).

Once fermentation starts things get a little bit tricky as ethanol is being produced and it diffracts light differently to sugars. There are spreadsheets and calculators out there to convert the refractometer reading but i find them all to be quite variable.

A hydrometer doesn't need the result to be converted and the added bonus is when you take a reading you can drink the contents of the hydro jar!

I use a refractometer to check my pre-boil SG and then switch to a hydrometer for post-boil and onwards.

Congrats on the 1st AG Rotten - no going back now!

[SuperBroo]

great post Doc, very informative and thganks for answering that, and for the added information.
i thought it could do all of your SG readings.

Are they close enough to use for all readings or should i definately not do that ?


yes Rotten, you will love AG, once you've done a couple its a breeze, and you'll wonder why it was so daunting at the start.

best thing I reckon is to watch someone else d oa simple Ag with a simple batch sparge, takes away all the fears.

Then you get to kegging, which simplifies it all even more.

Happy brewing...

Cheers,
Chris

[drsmurto]

You can use a refractometer for all your readings but as i mentioned, the numbers will need converting once fermentation starts.

If you took the refractometer readings post fermentation without doing a conversion they would read far too high.

Beersmith has a built in refractometer tool that you can use once you have calibrated it by taking readings pre and post fermentation using both a refractometer and a hydrometer. I find its reasonably close.

[rotten]

G'day all.
1st partial mash was tasted tonight.
Verdict: Bit light for hop influence at the moment but it's only young. One thing I did notice was the so-called kit twang wasn't there, never really realised it was there until it wasn't if that makes sense. I normally brew bitter brews so generally passed it off for bitterness. I do like the 'fresh' taste so far and can't wait to taste future brews.
Cheers, if interested will update second partial attempt and 1st all grain which gets bottled in a few days.

P.S. bought some more grain on weekend, either this was overly crushed, or previous grain was hardly crushed which would effect efficiency and may explain my efficiency problems so far.