Trying to partially mash - my story

[kiwifirst]

So I have been brewing for the last 12 months.
I have been brewing K&K, mainly APA's using a coopers pale ale premium and experimenting with Cascade, Chinook and Centennial. Now not all my friends like high hoppy bitter flavour of my preferred drop, so I wanted to have an alternate beer on tap for when there are guests or if I ever felt like something different. So the perfect opportunity to try a partial mash.

I have spent the last couple of days reading the awesome articles on here and getting myself excited and confused at the same time, just as I believe I have a handle on a topic there is more technical info released that blows me away.

So here is my experimental mash, hope there are other K&K brewers who read this and decide to give it a go. I am going to keep adding to this as I make the brew, so this is by no means finished yet.

Cost $40

1.5kg Weyermann Pilsner
0.5kg Weyermann Vienna
0.5kg Weyermann Munich 1
1kg 50/50 LME/DEX
Saflager S-23 yeats
40g Hallertau 5.2%
40g Tettnang 4.5%

Havent worked out my hop boil times yet. Going to do that tonight, I usually add in 10min increments when boiling up the three C's in a APA, would really love some feedback from anyone who can tell me how effective the stepped approach is. For example if I were to add 5g of Hallertau every 5 mines for the last 15, how would that compare to 10g 15 mins and 5g at the end of the boil. How much difference in aroma and flavour? I know its kind of subjective, but I'd be interested in opinions.

I am trying to cook this up on Monday, gotta love a Melbourne Cup day long weekend. My plan is to use what I have available.

A Stainless steel urn, holds about 20l, a 20l plastic bucket with a lid (wrapped in a windscreen shield and a grain bag)

Plan:
Boil 16l of water in urn to 70c and pour into bucket. Put in grainbag with grain. Get the temp of the water to 65c and put the lid on for 45 minutes. I think that I will maybe lose about 1 or 2 degrees. Its very well insulated. Although I need a new windscreen shade.
Pull out the grain bag pour the rest into the urn. Was through the grains and add to the urn.
Boil in the urn for 45 minutes with a hop procedure not yet determined. Perhaps

60 mins - Hall 20g
60 mins - Tett 30g
10 mins - Hall 10g
5 mins - 5g of each
0 mins- 5g of each.

I will have got a starter bottle going on Sunday for the yeast and plan to BBQ all the meat out of the freezer over the weekend, this will allow me to brew it at about 12c. I have created a copper tube coil and now just trying to keep the hoses on there, even with hose clips I worry about the heat making the hose soft and having it slide off. I also have 5l of pre-chilled water to throw in to make it up to about 22l.

Ok so that is the plan. Very interested in seeing what this tastes like, using grain instead of a can. I have bought a kegerator so it will be kegged. I usually let me brews go for 2 weeks before i keg or bottle.

I'll update next week on how it all went. Feel free to comment or offer advice.

Cheers

[drsmurto]

Recipe sounds fine to me but get yourself a brewing program and run the numbers through it to get an idea of the OG and IBU.

The last thing you would want after putting all that extra effort in is an undrinkable beer due to massive bitterness.

I'd aim for 30-35 IBU in what looks like a nice, malty, german pilsner.

[kiwifirst]

I dis run it over a IBU calculator and it was reporting low 30's for a IBU. I usually make my APA's in the 50's but I do want some thing less bitter for the bbq guests to sample. The tricky bit with the calc I used was that I had to state the OG so I guessed about 1.040

I'll go have a look at the beermate software for my next brew.

[squirt in the turns]

I usually let me brews go for 2 weeks before i keg or bottle.
Cheers

Assuming that you're using a lager yeast strain if you're planning to ferment at 12 degrees, I believe you'll want to allow up to 3 weeks for primary fermentation, then maybe a couple of days for a diacetyl rest, depending on the yeast used. After that, it should benefit from lagering at 0-1 degrees, so you might want to keep that freezer empty (maybe give up meat for a while ). I believe the accepted period for lagering is as long as you can bear to wait.

I'm about to pitch my first ever lager and don't expect to be drinking it until Feb next year.

[kiwifirst]

Assuming that you're using a lager yeast strain if you're planning to ferment at 12 degrees, I believe you'll want to allow up to 3 weeks for primary fermentation, then maybe a couple of days for a diacetyl rest, depending on the yeast used. After that, it should benefit from lagering at 0-1 degrees, so you might want to keep that freezer empty (maybe give up meat for a while ). I believe the accepted period for lagering is as long as you can bear to wait.

I'm about to pitch my first ever lager and don't expect to be drinking it until Feb next year.

I am using Saflager S-23 yeast, do plan on emptying the freezer this weekend, so can have it free. I have never lagered before. Since the other kegs are running low I might have to lager slightly shorter Than I would have liked. It also depends on how long I can have the freezer for

So can i ask what is a diacetyl rest. I mean, is just a few days extra, so 3 week and 2 days, but you dont actually do anything to the beer? Or Keg it and let it rest at 12c then drop to 1c for as long as you can wait?

[squirt in the turns]

Diacetyl is a compound the yeast can produce depending on the temperature they're working at. It's described as a buttery flavour which is inappropriate for most styles of beer. A diacetyl rest is done by allowing temperature to rise (I think ale temps of around 17 or 18 are recommended), and keeping it there for at least 24 hours. The yeast then consume the diacetyl and clean the flavour up.

John Palmer explains it here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html

I've asked the question here before about how to determine if a rest is necessary, and I think the easiest answer is to do one whenever making a lager at proper lager temps. It's no extra hassle if you've got temp control anyway, so why chance getting butter flavoured beer? I don't think there would be any negative effects even if it wasn't strictly required. I'm planning to do one for the aforementioned pilsner.

[warra48]

What squirt said.

I racked a Pils for lagering on Monday 25 Oct. It has been in primary at 9.5ºC since Friday 1 October. I raised the temperature to 15ºC for the last 3 days in primary for a diacetyl rest, even though I don't believe my beers need it. I do the same as DrS, pitch large and at fermentation temperature. I had a 4½ litre starter of WY2124.

Your recipe looks nice, very similar to my current brew.
I used 4.5 kg Premium Pilsner, 0.5 kg Vienna, and Hallertauer Tradition at 60 and 10 min to 40 IBU.

[kiwifirst]

Diacetyl is a compound the yeast can produce depending on the temperature they're working at. It's described as a buttery flavour which is inappropriate for most styles of beer. A diacetyl rest is done by allowing temperature to rise (I think ale temps of around 17 or 18 are recommended), and keeping it there for at least 24 hours. The yeast then consume the diacetyl and clean the flavour up.

John Palmer explains it here: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html

I've asked the question here before about how to determine if a rest is necessary, and I think the easiest answer is to do one whenever making a lager at proper lager temps. It's no extra hassle if you've got temp control anyway, so why chance getting butter flavoured beer? I don't think there would be any negative effects even if it wasn't strictly required. I'm planning to do one for the aforementioned pilsner.

Very interesting. I will certainly give the Diacetyl rest a go. Will be relatively simple with the temp control on the freezer. I am hoping that running a freezer on and off for 3 weeks to maintain 11c will not cause it to die on me. I guess then I will also need to make a K&K ale as well this weekend, otherwise I'll have nothing left in the kegs waiting for the partial to finish.

Thanks for the help on this, I found that article interesting. I am beginning to realise that this isn't a beer making hobby. It is a science lesson.

[kiwifirst]

"Plan:
Boil 16l of water in urn to 70c and pour into bucket. Put in grainbag with grain. Get the temp of the water to 65c and put the lid on for 45 minutes."

I am worried about this part. Everything I have read shows me that I should be using only about 7l of water. 2.6-2.9 x 1kg grain. What will this do to my wort if I have all 16l in the grain mash?

[billybushcook]

Mash with the initial 7 Liters, then sparge (rinse) with the other 9L.
You will need to raise the temp for sparging to about 80 + degC.

(Unless I'm missing some thing here to do with BIAB)

Mick.

[Bum]

"Plan:
Boil 16l of water in urn to 70c and pour into bucket. Put in grainbag with grain. Get the temp of the water to 65c and put the lid on for 45 minutes."

I am worried about this part. Everything I have read shows me that I should be using only about 7l of water. 2.6-2.9 x 1kg grain. What will this do to my wort if I have all 16l in the grain mash?

I can't quote exact numbers because I don't BIAB but you can get away with a much thinner mash with this method than with using a MLT. With BIAB you can essentially mash with your full volume (for a full batch, not a partial) and omit a sparge step completely so I doubt that getting up to 3L/Kg is gonna stuff your brew.

Should find a definitive answer here: http://www.biabrewer.info/

[EDIT: Oops! I've misread you a bit. Sorry. But the gist still holds true. I'm pretty sure I recall reading that you should be able to get away with 5-6L/Kg with BIAB and a fine crush - but please (as mentioned above) don't take my word for it because I don't use this method.]

[kiwifirst]

Thanks for all the help guys.
I brewed it with 7l in the end. Got my strike temp perfect. Used a 20l bucket wrapped in a windscreen shield (reversed), this held the temp to within 1c over the 45 mins. The sparged, but my sparging went very quickly, I need to work a better flow control, probably was done sparging (about 15L) in 20 mins/
Run a 60 minute boil adding hops as I went, then added the 50/50 with 10 mins to go.
Then force cooled with a copper coil. Pitched the yeast at about 15c.
It has been brewing at about 13-14c and is down to 1.006 after only 1 week, which surprised me. I think the OG was about 1.046. Lasy 2 days I let the temp up to about 16c and now dropping back down to 7c before I keg on Thursday night. I have a apa which is also ready, so will probably lager this partial for a few weeks. I did a taste test last night, and can certainly taste a buttery taste, its not bad, but it is overpowering the hops some what. Is it worth me putting the temp back up to say 18c for a couple of days for another diacetyl rest?

[Trough Lolly]

Thanks for all the help guys.
I brewed it with 7l in the end. Got my strike temp perfect. Used a 20l bucket wrapped in a windscreen shield (reversed), this held the temp to within 1c over the 45 mins. The sparged, but my sparging went very quickly, I need to work a better flow control, probably was done sparging (about 15L) in 20 mins/
Run a 60 minute boil adding hops as I went, then added the 50/50 with 10 mins to go.
Then force cooled with a copper coil. Pitched the yeast at about 15c.
It has been brewing at about 13-14c and is down to 1.006 after only 1 week, which surprised me. I think the OG was about 1.046. Lasy 2 days I let the temp up to about 16c and now dropping back down to 7c before I keg on Thursday night. I have a apa which is also ready, so will probably lager this partial for a few weeks. I did a taste test last night, and can certainly taste a buttery taste, its not bad, but it is overpowering the hops some what. Is it worth me putting the temp back up to say 18c for a couple of days for another diacetyl rest?

G'day kiwifirst....I know a thing or two about diacteyl rests and whilst it's fine to give the beer a warming rest, choose carefully when to do it. Why? Well, warming up the beer will ask your S-23 yeast to do other things, such as generate fusel alcohol which imparts a highly undesirable astringent / nail polish remover / solventy flavour profile to the beer - which is a shedload worst than butterscotchy flavours that diacetyl typically imparts. If you're hellbent on doing a diacetyl rest, I recommend doing a rest late in the primary fermentation phase...

I provided a more detailed explanation why over on Aussiehomebrewer back in 2006. If you're bored or whatever, you might want to have a read of it here:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9875&st=0&p=122601&#entry122601

Cheers,
TL

[rotten]

Welcome back Trough Lolly.
Sorry to hijack Kiwifirst, TL's posts helped my partials heaps before I moved on, and I'm sure many others as well.
Cheers

[kiwifirst]

"The diacetyl precursor - alpha acetolactate - undergoes a spontaneous oxidative decarboxylation and converts into diacetyl (2,3-butanedione)."

TL, I certainly won't be questioning your expertise on said subject.

I started down this "rest" path after reading the earlier posts. I think I understand the process and how it happens. I think my rest happened a bit late. I was surprised to see the brewing process happen so quickly, I was expecting at least 1 full week for about 1/2 to 3/4 fermented and I could go to a secondry. At one week it was already down to 1.006! So my rest happend later than expected. I also cannot say for sure the actual brew temp. I think it was about 14c, but I am running in a freezer with a temp switch to maintain the temp. I really need to take a pour and run a temp check to see the difference in freezer temp and actual wort temp. The temp stickers on the side doesn't seem to work to well down at the lower temp range.
I am certainly not hell bent of having the rest, but being my first partial, I had numerous expectations, I love APA's and a big fan of hoppy beer, so whilst I knew this wouldnt be anything like the APA's I was hoping to taste the influence of the different hops; the butterness is masking them quite a lot at the moment, I am not sure if that will fade with lagering? But I guess my main concern is how to stop it happening in the future. You reply seems to lead me to believe I really do not have to do them, so I need to find out what part of the process I did encouraged the flavour.

Cheers.

[Trough Lolly]

14 degrees is in the upper band of ok for S-23 and for the moment, I'll have to assume that the yeast isn't too old or stale (which can be a prime culprit behind diacetyl generation).

But you have given me another important clue - a quick primary ferment. If the ferment is now pretty much dormant, it's possible that for whatever reason, the yeast didn't have enough contact time with the wort to scrub out the diacetyl precursors...so a diacetyl rest may be warranted. If the butterscotch flavour is strong and you want to try to pull it back then by all means, go for the rest. If you're really feeling brave, you can bring up the fermenter temp - I strongly advise against going above 20C - and, gently rouse the beer to resuspend some of the yeast - avoid splashing or introducing air / use a sterilised stirrer. This is not normally done but you must get the yeast back to work in the beer to scrub out some of the diacetyl. When you raise the temp, expect to see some bubbling / airlock action as some of the CO2 will come out of solution - gas escaping as liquid temp rises, etc...that's normal but it's just gas escaping, not yeast going back to work, hence why I suggest a gentle rousing/stirring to resuspend some yeast. When you do it, have a quick sniff - if you smell a foul odour, you may have another problem altogether - yeast autolysis...I don't have a fix for that!!

Diacetyl rests are fine, but remember, any mucking around with a beer, post-fermentation, has risks - pediococcus infections can occur due to a hygiene glitch and guess what? It too can generate diacetyl - and more of it if you warm up the beer. Anyway, its your call. Make sure you aren't misdiagnosing the flavour profile - get a fellow brewer to verify you have diacetyl if possible.

Good luck and let us know how you go...

Cheers,
TL

[kiwifirst]

Thanks TL, it really has got me thinking about too much early diagnosis clouding my opinions.
I had a sniff and sample tonight, before I had a taste of my hoppy APA, and whilst the aroma is still buttery, the taste is much less pronounced, either the sitting at lower temp for 24 hours is helping, or my taste buds are not over stimulated by cascade hops.

Your point about getting another homebrewer to sample is a valid one, I sometimes worry that I am reading terms on here and saying "oh I have that" kind of like hypochondria with HB. For all I know the beer is supposed to taste this way as its the ingredients used. (I pretty much have made nothing but APA's for the last 12 months)

So before I spend way to much time wringing my hands and wondering what I am doing wrong, I will find myself a local "taster friend" and get a second opinion. Worst case I'll run some down to G&G.

Thank you for your replies, your advise if very informative, I must admit I am really enjoying the science of this hobby, it is really fascinating how the entire process works and how so many small changes can create such different results.

Cheers

[kiwifirst]

Update: Kegged and sitting in the Kegerator at 4c. Batch was a lot smaller, I really need to put some line marks on my cubes, I have no idea what volume I had. It ended up with about 15-16l. Lighter looking than I expected, kegged at 1.006. Still a slight buttery finish.
Will try and lager for about a month. Already itching for my next partial, or...... I might get a bigger pot and go for a full grain. Its probably the lack of a big enough brew pot that is stopping me.