Guinness AG recipe

[drsmurto]

So i am after the definitive AG recipe for Guinness. The draught version is preferred.

I have searched and read thru dozens of pages of recipes both here and elsewhere.

So far it looks pretty much like pale malt, some flaked barley and some roast barley with or without some crystal, carafa, choc, black. Goldings seem to be favoured to around 35-40IBUs. Wont be adding lactose or soured guinness. They may well be in the real thing but would rather give it a go without complicating things.

I need it to be in a keg ready to drink (albeit a tad green) in 49 days.

So i want something that someone has actually brewed, not just googled and plucked a recipe, i can do that!

This is what i was thinking so far.

20L batch OG 1.050, 45 IBU, 76 EBC

3.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 80.46 %
0.40 kg Barley, Flaked (3.3 EBC) Grain 9.20 %
0.35 kg Roasted Barley (Thomas Fawcett) (1199.7 EBC) Grain 8.05 %
0.10 kg Carafa III (Weyermann) (1034.3 EBC) Grain 2.30 %
50.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 31.0 IBU
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (30 min) Hops 14.3 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084)

[lethaldog]

Got one for you Doc!!

Guiness Draught Clone

2.3 kg ale malt
1.1 kg Flaked Barley
450 gms roasted Barley
68 gms East kent goldings ( 5%AA 60 mins)
Wyeast irish ale ( 1084)

Mash at 66*C for 60 mins then add boiling water to reach 76*C, Sparge with 77*C water, boil wort for 90 mins and add hops at 60 mins, Sparge with enough water to collect about 25-26 litres to finish with 19 litres in fermenter after boil, Rack to second when finished fermenting and bottle/Keg a week later... Enjoy

[Kevnlis]

Looks very similar to the recipe I made

I did decide to put a large flavour addition and some Acidulated Malt (will be added to mash once pH reading has been taken to reach a target of 5.2-5.7).

Also I am going to do a triple decoction mash.

For 23L @ 70% efficiency:

0.20 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 2.85 %
4.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 64.19 %
1.50 kg Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 21.40 %
0.75 kg Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 10.70 %
0.06 kg Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 0.86 %
60.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 35.2 IBU
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (20 min) Hops 9.1 IBU
1.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
4.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
6.00 gm Bicarb (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
8.00 gm Chalk (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale

Will brew this Wed or Thursday when I find time.

[Chris]

And don't forget the little bit of lactic for that authentic Guinness flavour.

[drsmurto]

Thanks for those, busy tweaking the recipe in beersmith now. Will start this one simple, Lethal, yours looks nice so i have dropped the carafa.

Kev - Once i get a baseline for this brew i can play around with the water chemistry. Will use Adelaide tap water which is closer to Dublin water than my rainwater is! Keep me in the loop cos i am super keen to hear how your water adjustments go.

As for the lactic, have read all about adding 3% soured guinness but again, small steps first but its duly noted.

[Trough Lolly]

G'day Doc,
Stouts are hard to perfect, but easy to make....For all grain Guinness, I've had good successes with a very simple grainbill - Galaxy, Flaked and Roasted Barley is ideal. The Galaxy malt is an excellent converter malt - as I've said on other posts, Galaxy will almost convert dust!!
I've also enjoyed stouts made with Marris Otter. I'd suggest you keep the flaked barley to no more than 1kg and up the pale malt accordingly - I don't go for excessively high OG's as the corresponding alcohol notes tend to over-ride the malt flavour profile which is, IMHO, one of the joys of drinking a good stout - that malty, grainy goodness standing out with a balancing bitterness. Drop the Carafa and keep that for your porters...
Aim for an OG of no more than 1.045...and keep the ferment temp under control - you don't want fruity esters from a warmish ale ferment. S-04 is ok, US-56 is fine for a clean crisp ferment but, IMHO, Wyeast 1084 or 1028 and their White Labs equivalents are best.
As for hopping a stout, I normally stick to one decent bittering addition - I recommend Northdown hops (Ross will have them) for a Guiness clone. Target's not a bad alternative, or a combo of EK Goldings / Northern Brewer...Without wanting to become a BJCP nazi, hop flavour and aroma are out of style (Guinness Draught is classified as a Dry Stout) and besides you get plenty from the roasted malt and bittering addition to keep you happy anyway!
Your original recipe had a lot of salts in the recipe - if you have relatively soft water (like we have in Canberra) I burtonise the mash water with 1tsp of Gypsum and away you go. Use the chalk if you like, but the other stuff may give you some, er, unexpected effects down below if you go overboard....but then again, it's cheaper than paying for a colon flush!
Here's a good link on Stouts for further info:
click here...

Cheers,
TL - aka Brother Stout, Canberra Brewers club!

[drsmurto]

Cheers that info TL (Brother Stout ). Kev is the one attempting to burtonise his (rain)water, us Adelaideans already have hard water good for ales etc. i use my rain water for pilsners.

i added the carafa for colour but your right, its a key ingredient in my porters so will drop it. As you said, simple is best and thats where i want to start.

Ive got BB ale on hand but no galaxy - also enough MO. Any prefs?

So adjustments in -

3kg BB ale
0.8kg flaked barley
0.45 kg roast barely
15g NB @ 60mins
20g EKG @ 60 mins
30 IBU
OG 1.046
wyeast 1084 - ferment at 18C

I went the NB/EKG route cos i have them and really need to clean out some hops before buying more no matter how tempting it may be... 1084 yeast i will have by the weekend, hoping to brew Sunday. Pity i dont have a spare fermenter.....

EDIT - reduced IBUs to 30 which is more in line with guinness

[Trough Lolly]

Looks good; I'd aim for a mash temp of 63C if you can - higher if you prefer a fuller bodied sweet stout style...

Cheers,
TL

[drsmurto]

63? wow thats low. No, i want a dry stout much like Guinness so i will go for 63.

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Kevnlis]

Thanks TL,

I guess I should have mentioned the fact that a great guy at the CSIRO tested my rainwater for me and it is basicly as close to RO water as you could hope for (less than .2 ppm of anything important to brewing!).

I did not realise how high the gravity was until you pointed it out. I have changed the recipe and will add:

0.20 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.22 %
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 63.29 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 21.10 %
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 10.55 %
0.04 kg Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 0.84 %
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 30.7 IBU
1.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
4.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
6.00 gm Bicarb (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
8.00 gm Chalk (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale

Also you think a single infusion at 63C is best for this style (the draught guiness I am familiar with has quite alot of body and good mouthfeel)? What about rests due to the high level of unmalted barley? Would decoction not achieve the rests and temperatures more acurately and easily? Also how many IBUs do you recommend from that single addition?

Cheers,
Kev

[drsmurto]

The Link TL provided suggested that the gravity determines the bitterness - the last 2 digits of the OG is the IBU. Which doesn't sound right to me, i am looking at OG 1.046 but dont think i need 46 IBUs. I am happy to be corrected but most of what i red says that draught Guinness is around the 30IBU mark.

[KEG]

my recollection is basically half the OG is a roughly balanced IBU.. Eg 1.048 = 24 IBUs for a balanced. There's a graph around somewhere that is pretty handy.

[drsmurto]

A crude version - Link

Most of my beers are in the 1.040-1.050 region and none are less than 35 IBUs.

[lethaldog]

EDIT - reduced IBUs to 30 which is more in line with guinness

Guiness draught has an ibu of 45

[Trough Lolly]

Thanks TL,

I guess I should have mentioned the fact that a great guy at the CSIRO tested my rainwater for me and it is basicly as close to RO water as you could hope for (less than .2 ppm of anything important to brewing!).

I did not realise how high the gravity was until you pointed it out. I have changed the recipe and will add:

0.20 kg Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.22 %
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy (Barrett Burston) (1.5 SRM) Grain 63.29 %
1.00 kg Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 21.10 %
0.50 kg Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 10.55 %
0.04 kg Acid Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 0.84 %
45.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 30.7 IBU
1.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
4.00 gm Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
6.00 gm Bicarb (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
8.00 gm Chalk (Mash 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast-Ale

Also you think a single infusion at 63C is best for this style (the draught guiness I am familiar with has quite alot of body and good mouthfeel)? What about rests due to the high level of unmalted barley? Would decoction not achieve the rests and temperatures more acurately and easily? Also how many IBUs do you recommend from that single addition?

Cheers,
Kev

G'day Kev - plenty of good questions there! Answers as follows:

- A 63C mash will still give you body and mouthfeel; if not, then you may have not mashed enough grains! The mash temp I recommend should produce a dry stout as opposed to a sweet stout which I'd mash at closer to 68C.

- A one hour mash is fine - go to 90 minutes if you have the time, but you should have complete conversion in less than an hour, especially if you are using a super converter such as Galaxy. The 3kg of Galaxy will happily convert itself and all the extra starches that the flaked barley may have so you should be fine with a single temp mash. Sure, you could do a beta glucan rest at 40C before the saccharification rest at 63C but I've never done so in the past and my stouts have been drinkable!

- A decoction will add flavor enhancing melanoidins in the final product, but to be honest, I see a small jug with boiling or cooled water to be just as effective and a lot more simpler to help manage mash temps in a single step infusion mash routine. I don't see much chill haze in my black as the night stouts anyway - maybe a deep rose hue around the edges against strong light, but that's about it!

- Recommended IBU's from the single hop addition should be somewhere between 30 to 45...I tend to like them in the upper limit of that band - it's up to your taste preferences as to how bitter you like this beer. I'd also suggest that you need to use a hop that you like the bitterness flavour profile of - any hop will deliver a certain bitterness, but it's a matter of finding the right hop that's either a faithful reproduction of the real thing or what you like in a beer. I could bitter my stout with Magnum but I don't think it would be an exact clone of Guinness!! (Hmm, but it would make a half decent Sierra Nevada stout!).

And one question from me....why are you using Rice Hulls? I don't see any wheat or huskless grain that's going to put you into stuck mash territory, or is it a standard addition to your brewing process?

Cheers,
TL

[Kevnlis]

Oooops, TL replied while I was typing

Excellent answers there TL. I now have a much better idea of what I will do with this mash!

The rice hulls are a standard addition to any mash where I use more than 35% or so huskless grain. Just to be sure to be sure.

I will hopefully mash this on Friday, but if it doesn't stop raining every time I try, I will never be able to. Not that I am not enjoying all the rain!

[drsmurto]

Man, so many numbers floating around, how many more times today will i change things on beersmith.

30-45. I like you TL, prefer the higher end.

Lethal - where did you get your info from? 45 doesnt sound too outrageous to me but it may depend on Guinness Draught on tap vs in the can/bottle. I think from TL's link the bottled stuff is higher? And have you made your recipe before? If so, any outside opinions? If you are anything like me then all your beers taste fantastic no matter their faults. It wasnt until the Grumpys Stamm on Friday night that i got alternate views of my first 3 AGs and i have learned a lot. I think i mash too low to ooften (65/66) and i dont know why i do it.

I am happy either way. 45IBUs sits well for me.

[Trough Lolly]

45 IBU it is then! Try it and take notes of what you did - you can do the brew again and tweak one or two parts of it and see how it turns out. Eventually you'll either get sick of drinking stout (yeah, right!) or you'll make a brew that you're really happy with!

Cheers,
TL

[Trough Lolly]

...I think i mash too low to ooften (65/66) and i dont know why i do it....

I don't think 65-66C is too low at all. To me it's right in the zone - what may be of more concern is the crush and how you dough-in. You may lose out on flavour and efficiency with doughballs that you aren't aware of.

Here's a good reference chart on mash temps, with thanks to Mr. Palmer:



Cheers,
TL

[drsmurto]

one last question TL, your thoughts on BB ale malt for this recipe. I just bought 25kg of the beast not really knowing what galaxy was. Would rather use this or maybe some of the MO i have. Will still need to buy the flaked and roasted barleys but can buy these uncrushed. I am picking up a mill on Saturday.