Help needed with AG ginger beer

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Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Monday Mar 02, 2009 3:34 pm

Hi,
I'm trying to work out a recipe for my first AG ginger beer while I try to find the time to do it (Is "AG" even the right term for this?). I think I have a rough idea but I'd be very grateful for any advice people can give to put me on the right track. I'm after a sweetish, high alcohol GB with a nice, warm bite. Here's the rough plan:

1/1.5kg fresh ginger (depending how cheap I can find it)
1kg raw sugar
1kg light dried malt extract (CraftBrewer)
450g lactose (CraftBrewer)
2 cinnamon sticks
juice and zest of lemons (undecided quantities: depends on taste of juice on the day, thinking up to 4 if not so potent; zest, probably only one lemon worth)
8/10 cloves
champagne yeast (5gm 771 from CraftBrewer)
fermenter topped up to 23l

Completely unsure of boil times or brew temp (thinking about 20C?). If I strain the wort into the fermenter am I going to lose a great deal of the ginger and spices?

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby drsmurto » Tuesday Mar 03, 2009 9:19 am

Its not AG, you are making extract GB.

AG = all-grain.

A few comments as i have gone down this road several times before.

1.5kg of ginger for 23L. I use 1kg for 20L and find that its about right but could always use more.

Boil the ginger, lemons, cinnamon and cloves for 30-60 mins.

Strain into the fermenter and add the extract and raw sugar.

lactose isnt as sweet as you might think. Ive used 250g in a 15L batch and not noticed it. It is also much harder to dissolve than raw sugar so you may need to boil it for up to 20 mins to get it completely dissolved.

Think about adding some fresh ginger to secondary, processed and then steeped in boiling water for a few mins to sanitise. Sort of like dry hopping but you want to add some fresh ginger aroma to the beer.

Fresh ginger has more aroma less bite than ginger left in the fridge for a few months. i tend to use a combo of fresh and old ginger.

Try using a less attenuating yeast than champagne. Maybe S-04 or nottingham.

My 2 c
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Tuesday Mar 03, 2009 10:10 pm

Thanks for your suggestions/corrections, drsmurto. Most helpful. I do have a couple questions though.

I presume that if I use a less attenuating yeast I'll have a lower alcohol content, right? I'm not looking for rocket fuel, exactly, but I do want it to work. And if my former presumption is correct will this leave enough unused sugars to effect sweetness enough to omit the lactose (or alternatives)?

I do not rack and I bottle so I'm not too keen on putting fresh ginger into my secondary but can you see a big problem with me adding the second amount of ginger into the wort for a about a week after I've reached FG?

I'm now leaning towards putting this brew off for a bit so I can age some ginger (and totally overthink the process and make it completely undrinkable).
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bizier » Wednesday Mar 04, 2009 7:11 am

I am unsure where you are, but you can buy both aged and fresh ginger in many asian supermarkets or markets.

I have been looking into dried stevia herb for a sweetener in GB, though I have read that it is antibacterial and anti yeast... but I suppose so is hops. Anyway it is supposed to be really sweet stuff.

As for the secondary deal, I would chuck the ginger in when you reach FG and leve for a further week.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby drsmurto » Wednesday Mar 04, 2009 9:48 am

When i say less attenuating its still going to chew thru most of the sugars.

Champers yeast will eat everything in sight and leave you with an FG lower than 1.000.

Using the ale yeasts i suggested should result in an FG above 1

If you dont rack then yes, adding more ginger after you reach FG will be fine.

The other alternative is to ditch the suagr and make it all malt. This will leave you more sweetness in the beer. Extract is less fermentable than sugar. If you do this you wont need lactose. Unless you are after that sickly sweet taste of Bundy GB.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Mar 04, 2009 2:01 pm

I'm not intending on making it really sweet but I would like some noticable sweetness under the warmth of the ginger (which I am hoping to get quite bitey). Sounds like all malt will probably be the go - although I gather from reading most of the GB threads hereabouts that the raw sugar is preferred by most - hence a bit of both in the original recipe. Now considering doing a brew of each and seeing what I think of the difference.

Thanks for the tip on the aged ginger, Bizier. Never would have thought of that on my own. Will definitely look into it. You mentioned stevia to me in another thread once before - I've looked into it a little more since then and I must say it still sounds too complicated for me right now. I don't know about sourcing dried stevia but I do know there is a stevia extract product available commercially called PureVia. Don't know where to get it or if it is suitable for brewing purposes but it might be worth a look.

Thank you both for your help. I think I've lined up a new secondhand fridge and a fridgemate and this'll be the first brew I put down in it. I'm really looking forward to buggering up the entire process! :D
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Tuesday Mar 10, 2009 5:26 pm

I put this down today. Recipe ended up being:

1.7kg aged ginger (found an asian market that had some good looking stuff, thanks for the tip, Bizier!)
2kg LDME
2 cinnamon sticks
6 cloves (decided to drop this down a little as I read they can make the alcohol kick harder, or something. I'll see for myself and think about possibly upping it next time)
2 cups lemon juice
zest of one lemon
Safale S-04

Will ferment at 19deg.

My SG seems pretty low to me (not that I'm really sure about this stuff yet) - 1032. And after taking the reading I had a taste (as you do) and it was thin fire water. No lemon coming through at all and no sweetness. Early days yet, maybe they'll come to the fore a little more as the ginger settles down (which I'm presuming it will since it lost a lot of presence in the kit GB I did last year).
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bizier » Tuesday Mar 10, 2009 5:52 pm

you might want to add more boiled LDME/Dex to that brew Bum, the ginger : gravity ratio is pretty awesome. I would suggest say 1-2kg LDM on top of that.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Tuesday Mar 10, 2009 6:09 pm

Really? Up to 4kg of LDME? How much water should I boil it up in? I don't want to bring the gravity further down by putting in too much. I've got no LDME on hand - will I bugger it up if I wait unitl tomorrow arvo, or should I grab some raw sugar/coopers at the supermarket tonight?
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bizier » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 7:52 am

OK, maybe 4kg is a bit much,

But in a 23L batch another kilo of LDME + 500g of plain cane sugar will get you to about 1.056, and roughly 5.4%abv.

I think you should be fine to add it late if you boil it up with enough water to make a pasterurised syrup and chill that with the lid on. Depending on your method, the low starting gravity might have actually had a positive effect on your yeast.

If you have no sweetness before fermentation, imagine what it is going to taste like when it ferments out...

When my mate did his, he gave me a bunch of bottles and I couldn't drink them alone. We poured them into a jug with honey, lemon, mint and ice, and drank that. He did 100% cane sugar and ginger... I'd say it even finished below 1.000 and was dry and hot.

ED: You will only bring the finishing gravity "down" by using cane sugar, because it basically makes ethanol, which is lighter than water. If you are using LDME or other malts, you are bringing the finishing gravity "up" because there is unfermentable components that are heavier then water. So more malt should equal a sweeter finish.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 8:01 am

Almost immediately after submitting my last post I decided I'd let it ride out as is - you know, so I can see what the difference is for myself and better understand how to improve future brews. If it comes in at a low alc level I can just use it as a mixer in my favourite drink, affectionately known around my house as "Lunatic Soup" (bourbon, Stones, lime, dry - the gb would substitute the dry and the resulting drink would probably put me one my arse after 2!).

But you've got me scared now. It won't be any good to me either way if there is nothing in the way of sweetness at all. I'll probably drop into the local HBS on the way home from work.

Thanks for the advice.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bizier » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 8:08 am

No, this will probably make a great mixer, but it won't be sweet. You will be fine to leave it. The major contribution to your drink will be carbonation and ginger if you don't add more. But you can mix up some sugar to make a simple syrup, and chuck a squirt of that into your drink to taste.

Bum wrote:But you've got me scared now.


Relax... :D
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 1:51 pm

The good lady wife needs to be able to drink it too so I can't have it too dry. I decided to add the extra kilo of LDME and the 500g cane sugar. I boiled this up in as little water that I could dissolve it all in - still not quite what I'd call a syrup but definitely much thicker than water. Chilling it now but I have yet another question: since my yeast is already pitched should I NOT stir the extra fermentables in as vigorously as you do initially? If not will it do the job properly without being mixed in thoroughly? Any advice appreciated here as I assume time is of the essence on this matter.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby drsmurto » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 2:18 pm

Adding sugar will actually dry it out as its 100% fermentable.

LDME isnt 100% fermentable so leaves behind some sweetness.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 2:23 pm

I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he was suggesting the sugar to alter the SG situation? At least that's how I understood it. Is the final dryness a cumulative thing or will the extra sweetness left by the extra LDME go someway to balancing it out?

Still need some help on the stirring issue if anyone has any wisdom to impart.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby drsmurto » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 3:07 pm

My response was directed at you Bum! :D

But Biziers idea would work when serving.

If you are going to mix it anyway why go to the effort of making a GB.

Mineral water and ginger cordial.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Mar 11, 2009 3:11 pm

I know it was directed to me but it was in regard to me following his suggestion.

I'm not doing the syrup mixer thing. And I've tried the Bundy GB cordial in Lunatic Soup before and it DOES NOT work. Even Kirk's tastes better! Not on it's own, mind you.

I guess I'll just stir it in and hope for the best.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bizier » Thursday Mar 12, 2009 10:14 am

Sorry for going AWOL on ya.

Yep, I meant sugar syrup when serving. This is the whole reason I do not make GB... it is too hard. And that is exactly why I am thinking of stevia as a non-fermentable sweetener, because I don't want to add saccharine like the kits. The doc can do it because he kegs, and you can add sweetness later and don't have to rely on yeast for carbonation.

For the record, you don't need to stir extra malt/sugar into the fermenting solution too much IMO, because the yeast will find it and you don't want to add much oxygen at this stage.

I am sure it will all be fine, and you will see it all first hand, and learning is best done first hand.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Thursday Mar 12, 2009 2:08 pm

Absolutely but I'm always happy to listen to the voice of experience. Thanks to you both for all your help!

I stirred it in as much as I could without splashing, When I decided it was enough I pulled the spoon out and as the centrifugal action slowed down and the wort leveled out a bit the whole surface bubbled and fizzed like a coke or something. I thought I'd done something to kill the yeast but the airlock is bubbling like crazy still so I presume I've got good fermentaion going on. I'll just leave the fridgemate to do its job and check the gravity when the week is up.
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Re: Help needed with AG ginger beer

Postby Bum » Wednesday Apr 22, 2009 8:23 pm

I just cracked one of these. I intended to leave it until about May 7th but couldn't help myself. Very lightly carbed. The first thing you notice is that it smells like ginger beer and water. Very weak. Then the first thing you taste is "awful" - vinegar-esque but not quite (infection?). Then the lemon absolutely dominates the palate. At the very end you get a small amount of ginger taste, but a fair amount of the familiar tingle once it is all gone. My mouth makes me feel like I've had a fantastic GB and my hand reaches for more. Then I get a mouthful of f---ing salad dressing.

I'll sit on it until June and see what happens.
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