Cider - will it or won't it....?

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Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Sunday Apr 04, 2010 10:12 pm

Howdy crew

Am a relative new-comer to brewing, having knocked together a few beers (which have come out fantastically) over the last couple of months, and now having a crack at cider for the first time.

So here is my issue. I sourced 20 litres of fresh apple juice from a friendly local juice bottler. I asked for it straight off the press, but he forgot. So he tapped off my juice out of the vat, after chilling and adding a 'little bit' of preservative. I let it warm to 18 degrees, then pitched a sachet each of champagne yeast and yeast nutrient.

After 24 hours, nothing.... So, thinking the champagne yeast had been killed off, I added a couple of sachets of yeast I had left over from beer kits. Now, 3 days later, still 20 degrees, the SG has dropped from 1.064 to 1.058, there were just a few bubbles in the test tube, and there was a little foamy krausen in the tub. It seems to be fermenting.... a bit.... It tasted good, and just vaguely alcoholic.

And so to my queries....

Should it be fermenting faster than this? (My beers have been done in under a week.) Am I wasting my time? How long might this take? :? :?

Thanks in advance for any advice....

Dave
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Bum » Sunday Apr 04, 2010 10:35 pm

Cider generally takes a little longer than beer to ferment and condition. If it is fermenting I wouldn't sorry too much. Your only concern really is the preservative. Keep it as cool at the yeast can handle without going to sleep and your cider will thank you for it.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Tuesday Apr 06, 2010 9:08 am

Cheers Bum.

It still seems to be choogling along very slowly. Re-checked this am, and SG has dropped further to 1.054, more bubbles evident in the test tube and tastes more alcoholic again. So I think it will be ok, but I am way too impatient to be repeating this too often :| . So many beers to make....
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Wednesday Apr 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Ok, so here is how it is playing out.

The cider is still monopolising my fermenter after 15 days. It got a good krausen going, and dropped the gravity to 1.030 as of yesterday, but seems to have stopped dropping. I had allowed the temp to drop to 13 deg, so yesterday, gave it a stir and re-warmed to 20 deg, but there is no real sign of further action as far as increased foaming or bubbling airlock. It tastes like a terrific, sweet cider.

But it should ferment out way further shouldnt it? I thought ciders were supposed to end up around the 1.000 mark.... If I bottle now, am I making a cupboard full of hand-grenades? :|

Am champing at the bit to get my next beer down.

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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby earle » Thursday Apr 15, 2010 8:40 am

Unless you put non-fermantable sweetners such as lactose or artificial sweetner in your cider, you shouldn't end up with a nice sweet cider. The fact that it tastes sweet suggests fermentation is incomplete and that bottling would create bottle bombs. If you were able to keg it on the other hand you would probably be right.

Champagne yeast should be fairly alcohol tolerant and as you had an OG of 1064 this shouldn't be an issue. It could be that fermentation is just too slow to be producing the signs that you're looking for. Check the gravity after a few days, if it still hasn't dropped I would try repitching with some fresh yeast to give it a kick along.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby gregb » Thursday Apr 15, 2010 11:48 am

Give the fermenter a gentle swirl to rouse the yeast that may have floculatted out early.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Friday Apr 16, 2010 4:23 pm

Cheers chaps

I gave it a stir and warmed it up, and it seems to have kicked into gear again. Still no bubbling airlock, and very modest krausen, but it seems to be dropping - 1024 last night, so dropping about 2 points a day. Taste is also drying out. So at this rate, it should be done in a couple more weeks.... :( I have all the stuff there waiting to put down the next beer.... Am going to have to buy another fermenter aren't I?
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Bum » Friday Apr 16, 2010 4:33 pm

Yeah but don't worry - it won't be the last.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Thursday Apr 29, 2010 9:35 pm

And it goes on....

The cider is still in the fermenter. Been there a month now, and I am still not sure it's finished. The gravity was 1010 a few days ago, having had a few swirls and warm-ups along the way. I dont know how much further it might go.... tastes good and dry.

Would anybody consider bottling at this point? Maybe without the priming? Would it be too much pressure still?

I did grab a second fermenter, and have a nice ale bubbling away. But I was hoping to rack it (first try at that caper also) in the next week or so to the fermenter holding the cider. Obviously the cider has to move out to make room.

Any guidance?
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Finnagann » Thursday Apr 29, 2010 10:26 pm

i've not made cider but with beer you want to leave it be at least until it is stable. By stable I mean the SG has not changed for three or so days and has gotten close to your expected FG (finishing gravity). Perhaps someone with some cider exp can chime in.

As for the beer.
There are two schools of thought: rack it! , and don't bother! I won't go into too much detail but the basic idea of don't rack is that it gives your yeast time to clean up after itself and there's no harm done otherwise. Also its one less thing to do 8) . At any rate you don't have to rack it if you don't want to or don't have room :)
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby bullfrog » Friday Apr 30, 2010 9:57 am

Ciders do tend to get lower than 1010, so I'd still be waiting a bit. Has the gravity dropped in the past couple of days?

As for the racking of your ale, I'm a subscriber to the 'don't rack' school-of-thought. One less chance to introduce nasties to your lovingly-prepared brew. If you're racking to increase clarity, then you should give fining or cold conditioning a go, instead.

My 2c.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Friday Apr 30, 2010 11:12 pm

Thanks fellas.

I checked the gravity again today, and the cider seems steady at 1010 - that should be plenty of alcohol given it started at 1064. Temp has been 16 - 19 deg, so I reckon it is done. If I get a chance it will go into bottles in the next day or two. I will use as many PET bottles as I can, and I might not use too much dex for priming. Might even put the bottles into a seperate cupboard, so they dont explode my beers....

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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Shanus » Monday May 03, 2010 7:59 am

pet bottles will either push the bottoms out or crack the lids
that is what has happened to the two brews i over carbed in pet's befor i moved to kegging
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby big dave » Monday May 03, 2010 10:37 am

It is done. Bottled yesterday. Had a few 1.25 soft drink bottles, but have had to put some in glass too. FG 1010, unchanged for almost a week. Used half-doses of priming sugar, and I am storing these seperately from my beers as insurance....
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby wrighty » Monday May 03, 2010 10:08 pm

Gday Dave,
Sounds like your cider will work out ok ,i bottle all my beer and ciders in 1.25 pets no problemo.
First batch i made with champers yeast went below 1.000 but i did make up afair size starter and also did a small boil with
some cinnamon and lemon and lime juice and rind.Whilst the boil was going added a spare coopers kit yeast for nuitrient.
Made with 20lt bottle juice and ended up dry as the sahara.Anyway left it for over5-6 weeks and tried again tasted like
Premier Cuvee champers the girls loved it :D Have since made several others and using red star wine yeast from Ross at AHB
working out fine. I think making a starter and adding nutrient will speed up your process.
Wrighty.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Chris » Monday May 03, 2010 10:12 pm

I realise it's now a bit late, but if you want to speed up a cider a bit (also works
with mead) add a teaspoon of vegemite. Does a nice job.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby gregb » Tuesday May 04, 2010 4:58 am

Not sure about other flavours introduced by the vegemite, but in a similar vein Yeast Nutrient may be of assistance.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby drsmurto » Tuesday May 04, 2010 10:57 am

Bit late on this thread but my thoughts...

Unlike beer you wont get a huge krausen when making cider as you have much less in the way of nutrients so the fermentation will be much slower (unless you add a yeast nutrient). Champagne yeast is notorious for having very little in the way of a krausen.

As always, krausen, airlock activity etc will vary and should never be relied on to determine how fermentation is proceeding. Your hydrometer is telling you it was dropping and that's all you need to know.

As for the OG and FG readings, I am a bit sceptical. Apple juice (from my experience) normally has an SG of 1.048-1.054 depending on variety, ripeness etc. An OG of 1.064 seems too high unless you added sugar to it.

Is it possible your hydro is out of whack? The OG reading should have been about 10 points lower as should the FG.... I;d expect it to finish at 1.000.

How does it taste? Does it have a slight sweetness or is it bone dry?

As for the preservative it was more than likely potassium metabisulphite. I add this to fresh pressed juice and wait 24-48 hours before pitching the yeast. It inhibits the growth of any wild yeast that may have been present on the apple skins.

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. not keen on vegemite in beer, let alone cider. A vegemite flavour in beer is due to yeast autolysis, typically the result of a hot fermentation or leaving the beer on the yeastcake for too long. Use old kits yeasts boiled up first or buy yeast nutrient from your LHBS.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby Chris » Tuesday May 04, 2010 12:05 pm

gregb wrote:Not sure about other flavours introduced by the vegemite.


Not noticable actually- especially if added to the boil and skimmed. I thought it may be salty,
but my trials all came out as normal.
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Re: Cider - will it or won't it....?

Postby bullfrog » Tuesday May 04, 2010 12:10 pm

Vegemite is just autolysed yeast with some additives, so you can avoid having the extra additives...well...added...to your brew by just using an old kit yeast in your boil or some yeast nutrient.
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