Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Methods, ingredients, advice and equipment specific to all-grain (mash), partial mash (mini mash) and "brew in a bag" (BIAB) brewing.

Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby squirt in the turns » Thursday Aug 05, 2010 10:18 pm

Hi all,
I’m currently trying to get my head around Beersmith, and how to adapt a recipe to my equipment. I’ve followed drsmurto’s guide to setting it up, but I’m having trouble understanding how it handles some of the volume variables.

It seems that when different values are entered into the deadspace field in the equipment set up, the only thing that changes is the volume of sparge water. For example: a 22 L batch made with a lauter tun deadspace of 1 litre and 4 kg of malt requires 30.19 L of water in total, of which 20.99 is to sparge with. The same recipe with 7 litres of deadspace requires a total 36.19 L, 26.99 to sparge. But, this 6 litre difference makes no difference to the predicted pre-boil SG, which comes out as 1036 in both cases (using the default efficiency of 75%).

That doesn’t seem right to me… surely that extra 6 L of water dilutes the wort and affects the SG, and presumably the efficiency?

Once I’ve figured that out, I’m considering doing TL’s latest iteration of his SNPA clone for my first attempt at AG: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4839&start=160

TL has achieved 83% efficiency, hitting an SG of 1050. I’m assuming that if I hit 70% efficiency on my first attempt, I just need to up the grain quantities, keeping the proportions the same, until Beersmith tells me I’ll hit the right pre-boil SG. Is that right?

Cheers all,
Matt
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby rotten » Thursday Aug 05, 2010 11:55 pm

squirt in the turns wrote:TL has achieved 83% efficiency, hitting an SG of 1050. I’m assuming that if I hit 70% efficiency on my first attempt, I just need to up the grain quantities, keeping the proportions the same, until Beersmith tells me I’ll hit the right pre-boil SG. Is that right?

Cheers all,
Matt


This bit I can say is correct. You can check the gravity after your mash and temp adjust it to make sure you have your predicted OG, beersmith shold have a tool for that. As far as the first questions go, people smarter than I on this subject, and maybe you, have hopefully got the calculations & numbers right. Hopefully someone else can reassure you as I'm a newbie to AG.
Cheers.
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby drsmurto » Friday Aug 06, 2010 11:34 am

Dead space is exactly that, dead space.

What it means is that when you drain the mash tun x number of litres are left behind.

The easiest way to check this is to pour 10+L if water in your mash tun and then let it drain. Measure what is left behind.

For me that is 1-2L so i need an extra 1-2L to achieve my pre-boil volume.

It technically should affect your SG but only marginally unless your dead space is huge as the liquid left in your tun isn't water, its wort.
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby squirt in the turns » Saturday Aug 07, 2010 10:52 pm

Arrggh, double post. Sorry.
Last edited by squirt in the turns on Saturday Aug 07, 2010 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby squirt in the turns » Saturday Aug 07, 2010 10:56 pm

Thanks guys.

Well, I believe I am essentially set to make the move to AG now. I paid my first visit to Craftbrewer today and triumphantly returned, a few hundred dollars lighter, the proud owner of several shiny new bits of kit, a fridgemate and Crown urn among them. I went for the exposed element urn, and having tested at about 1/3 full, can report that it holds a nice rolling boil without any of the shut-off issues reported about the concealed element version. Can’t wait to fill it with sweet, sweet wort. :mrgreen:

I also have 2 bags of grain, one containing the bill for your JSGA clone, Doc, and one for TL’s SNPA. Which to do first??? :?: :D I'm going to no-chill (at least for the first few brews). Should I make alllowances for that with the hop schedules... or is that a can of worms I don't want to open here? :roll:

So, if I understand correctly, the effect of adding extra water to the kettle would have a greater effect on the boil gravity than the same amount of exrta water for the sparge? My mash tun has 2.5 L of deadspace. More than I would have liked, but presumably not enough to worry about.

Regarding mash run-off: am I right in thinking the following? When I first open the tap, I want to restrict the flow to a trickle until it starts to run clear, then vorlauf? Do clear runnings indicate that the grain bed has set properly and is then forming a filter? And at that point, can I open the tap fully without risking a stuck mash/sparge?

Cheers.
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby drsmurto » Monday Aug 09, 2010 2:23 pm

So many questions!

If you add the extra water to the sparge it will have less of an effect on your OG than adding it straight to the kettle. The sparge water will contain sugars, the water in the kettle will not.

Vorlauf is started as soon as you open the tap, keep doing it until you are happy with the clarity and then start collecting the sweet wort. Depending on the design of your manifold it make clear in 1L or take several. It doesnt need to be crystal clear, slightly hazy is still OK.

I cant answer questions of no chill and late hopping as i don't do it with any experience but if i was to do my golden ale no chilled i would do a 60 and 20 min addition and then dry hop rather than add any hops in the cube or at flameout. This should in theory have little to no effect on the IBU.
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby speedie » Friday Aug 20, 2010 5:19 pm

The system extract efficiency is based on good milling practice , it is a bit of a balancing act if you mill too fine you may experience a stuck mash, if you mill too course you will not get the extract which should be yielded from the grain
The next issue is lautering correctly; most HB rigs have a sprinkler effect on a hose to distribute the water evenly.
The reality of poor sparging is poor extraction, what can happen is the water cuts a path through the bed and then takes the path of the least resistance
Hence there will pockets of grain that don’t get rinsed properly
Then temperature plays a part in this roll if the water is not at the correct temp, say too cold then the viscosity increases thereby acting like friction to the rinse action
Now it can be seen that good practice is vital to the extraction process
If you use either of the formulas that have been discussed in another post, you can analise the process by math to correct the area that maybe causing the percentage loses.
It doesn’t make sense to brew all grain then leave extract in the bed
Once you have used your brew rig consistently and get to know its extract (%) usage, it is then simply plugging in numbers to obtain certain gravities in different volumes
It is not an efficient way to add more grain to the next mash if your extract is down, let’s face it we all have to pay for grain, power, and water so we should endeavor to get the most out of it
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby rotten » Friday Aug 20, 2010 8:28 pm

Gday speedie.
That response was very informative, and I didn't feel anyone was being spoken down to once.

speedie wrote: let’s face it we all have to pay for grain, power, and water so we should endeavor to get the most out of it
Regards speedie


I hope you aren't suggesting better efficiencies will shall we say, 'save the world'.
Cheers
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Re: Beersmith - Volumes, SG and efficiency

Postby speedie » Saturday Aug 21, 2010 11:28 am

Cheers rotten
What I have been putting forward is the good use of all of the simple procedures in mashing
What with the way our energy costs are increasing wouldn’t it make more sense to extract the maximum sugars available to us all!
Did you know that in Europe they are producing beer without malted grain?
This is being touted as green beer or low energy stuff
There are enzymes added to the mash which do the conversion it sounds spooky, must work as the bigger brewers who are doing it
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