Stirring the mash

Methods, ingredients, advice and equipment specific to all-grain (mash), partial mash (mini mash) and "brew in a bag" (BIAB) brewing.

Stirring the mash

Postby bullfrog » Wednesday Sep 08, 2010 5:41 pm

I've been doing some reading, and some people tend to think that stirring the mash a couple of times is a requirement for BIAB to aid in the conversion, or some such. Just wanted to throw it out there to this community, should I be stirring my BIAB mashes to get a better efficiency? I've decided that I'm going to start doing a 10L sparge (more of a rinse, really) of the grains as a way to pick up a few more points as my efficiency (brewhouse, Speedie) has dropped since moving off my stovetop and into my urn, but could the issue simply be one of stirring?
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby speedie » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 9:08 am

Bullfrog how do you dough in your grain to start with
Surely it is stirred in to start with to prevent malt from balling

It is always recommended to agitate the mash when doing any sort temperature adjustment as the grain will get more even access from the water and heat source to facilitate hydrolysis

It doesn’t matter what size brew length you have

I used brew in a bag practice when I started to AG but found that the same problem exists with extraction losses
If it is the same thing my bag had a mesh bottom in it for the sparging

Keep some records of your batches pre and post stirring and see what numbers you come up with?

Speedie

:|
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby billybushcook » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 9:12 am

Initially I was stirring my mashes & getting alot of fine particulate going into the kettle,
I then moved to the "just hit my strike temp & leave it alone" theory (after the initial stir to get an even temp & lose the dough balls) & got the same OG but much cleaner wort resulting in a much cleaner beer & crisper flavours, chill haize was my main enemy.
But BeerSmith is telling me that my eficiencies are down ot about 65% or less????? could just be my hydrometer, it doesn't read more than 1.040, I have to estimate beyond that, but it looks as though I'm getting a consistant OG of 1.042 - 1.044 from a 5Kg grain bill in a 23L batch.
After reading on here recently about a few of you stirring the mash to get better efficiencies, I gave it another go & got the same result, dirty wort.
The other thing I have changed is from fly sparging to batch sparging (although I'm adding all my sparge water @90deg let it settle then take my first runnings) which again helps me with a cleaner wort.

All this may have something to do with the way my mash tun is set up, basically a 50L rectangular esky, with a fine S/S mesh false floor gaulked/sealed around the edges & gaps with Stainless Steel wool & an extra strainer on the out let tube on the inside of the tun, 12mm clear pvc tubing & no valve/tap, I just keep it elevated when not draining,

Bit of a ramble, but thought I should share my observations & maybe pick up some pointers?.

Mick.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby lethaldog » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 9:32 am

I used to just doe in, mix it all up and let it sit but i found i got better results from stirring the mash every 15 mins, for a 60 min mash the last time you stir is at the 45 min mark, never had too much problem with stuff getting through but i have a 40 litre rubbermaid for my mash tun and its cylyndrical which may help with the deeper grain bed and as you know chill haze is not a mash problem anyway but even if you do get a bit through in your runnings it really shouldnt affect the end product too much as it should all drop out anyway!!
Cheers
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby SuperBroo » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 10:09 am

Mick,
I stir the mash initially, then just a quick gentle stir after say 1/2 hour and again just before vorlaufing (recirculating until it runs clear).

You shouldnt have problems as long as you vorlauf before draining, regardless of how often you stir the mash.

Also make sure you dont stir the mash up too much when vorlaufing, as you will break up the filter bed around the braid, tip back in very gently.

I use a stanless braided tube in my esky as well, and get very clear wort running after 1-2 Litres of vorlaufing.

cheers,
Chris
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby bullfrog » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 10:13 am

Cheers fellas.

Speedie, of course I have always stirred at dough-in, but then I just leave the mash alone and let it do it's thing.

Last night was different, I agitated the mash at 20 minute intervals through an 80 minute mash. I also sparged/rinsed by firstly doughing in with 10L less than I normally would and then running that 10L through the grain bag at sparge temperatures. I built a large colander (drilled a billion holes into a round tub I got at Bunnings) which sits perfectly into the top of my urn for draining the bag, so I just ran the sparge water through the grain as it sat in that. Hit all my numbers. Was shooting for an OG of 1.048 and that's exactly what I got. Now I just have to wait a few weeks and I'll have LCBA on tap! :D
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby speedie » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 2:07 pm

Sounds like the agitation worked (after all)
Don’t take your bag out of your urn (which should be wrapped in a blanket or the like) leave it there and run to an insulated vessel (preheated esky)
(Assumption that your bag has a false bottom)

When sparging is finished empty the esky back into your urn and boil away
Also be careful with putting too hotter water into your grain bed as you are sure to extract polyphenols (tannins) from it

I usually hit 81c with my sparge water then start to rinse or recirculate
Until clear, apparently this is termed vorlauf (sounds deutsch to me) I call it setting the bed but that’s me!

Monitor your runoff temp with your thermometer to see what you obtain
When all of your wort is collected boiled and cooled then take a sample do a gravity reading (most hydrometers are calibrated for 15 c so get as close to that as possible)
Then try my formula and see how your grain extract numbers shape up
Cheers Speedie

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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby warra48 » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 2:09 pm

I stir at dough in, and for my first dozen or so batches I used to stir every 15 minutes.
Then I stopped stirring other than at dough in and after adding my batch sparge water, and found it made no difference to the outcome on my system.
Now I save myself the bother. As I often start brewing from 6 AM, I can have a nice cup of tea and breakfast with mrs warra while the mash is doing its thing.
My Brewhouse Efficiency in BeerSmith's recipe page is set to 85%, and I have no trouble achieving the predicted outcomes.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby speedie » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 2:22 pm

Mick from your results you are getting 50.6% extract from your system
Now you have to look at where it is being lost, 20% loss is not good (look at it this way you lose I fifth of your days work)

Suggestion do all of your mashing in one heated vessel agitate at all temperatures then transfer for sparging into your set up

Can’t see how you do it now so post your brew day regime
Ps is that short for some little creatures brew

Cheers speedie
:twisted:
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby hirns » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 4:58 pm

Bum wrote:That isn't were the backlash is coming from, I'm afraid. Most new members eventually work out where I'm coming from and some even grudgingly admit that I might have even been trying to help (if you can imagine such a thing!). The backlash that has me bothered is coming down from above (up to you to decide whether this is board staff or the formerly helpful brewers who don't post anymore).


Off topic still, but: Either way Bum, for what it's worth.....I don't believe either forum would work as well, if it were not for the balance that you add. I believe that a lot more realise this than they care to admit. Keep up the good work :D .

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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby Bum » Thursday Sep 09, 2010 5:10 pm

speedie wrote:read your link from the other site that you seem to have distain for
and it seems that there is another vessel called a bucket?
does this deem it a single vessel and bucket system?
how hard is it to go on one of those verge pick up days and find a unwanted esky for free!
why do you have to be so negitive
i can see why the extract is down now :roll:

I do not have disdain for that site. I like it a lot and post there very regularly (some might say regular as clockwork). [EDIT: oh yeah, you were probably talking about DrS having disdain for it. Apologies.]
About the bucket, if you read the post properly you'll see that this part is what he referes to as an optional "tweak" - a great many brewers forego this step.
BIAB in its purest form is still a single vessel method.
Not very hard but maybe they don't want to.
I wasn't being negative - I was actually trying to help you understand what it is that you are talking about - I guess I forgot you aren't interested in that. Dunno what came over me.
Efficiency is not necessarily lower for BIAB - it just takes a little more knowledge to get at them sugaz.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby billybushcook » Friday Sep 10, 2010 9:51 am

speedie wrote:Suggestion do all of your mashing in one heated vessel agitate at all temperatures then transfer for sparging into your set up

:twisted:


What are you on about?

Nowhere did I say I use seperate vessels, I mash in a 50L Esky (preheated) & Lauter out if it as well!!!!

My efficiency problem is more likely a hydrometer which does not read above 1.040, Chances are that my Og is actually about 1.048?
one thing I will try when I mash in tomorrow is to drop my strike water volume back down a bit,

when I first started AG (& was not looking at efficiency) I was striking with 14L of water & sparging with 18 but it meant I had to be very gentle with my boil & leave nothing in the kettle to get 23L of wort.
Then I upped my strike by 1.5L or so, to 15 or 16L & sparge with 19L, also leave some in the kettle these days, about 1L?

Cheers, Mick
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby Bum » Friday Sep 10, 2010 10:08 am

billybushcook wrote:What are you on about?

Nowhere did I say I use seperate vessels, I mash in a 50L Esky (preheated) & Lauter out if it as well!!!!

This is what he is talking about. He's suggesting that the only way to make good beer is through the use of a direct fired mash tun.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby speedie » Friday Sep 10, 2010 12:05 pm

Mick you must use an urn or pot on the stove to heat your water
What I was trying to convey to you is do your mashing in the same vessel then transfer to your esky set up and sparge away
Also do your self a favor and buy a well calibrated hydrometer
And don’t take this as a rib
If you keep good records it will help you with your brewing
:!:
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby billybushcook » Friday Sep 10, 2010 1:01 pm

Speedie,
I do keep extensive records of my brews (at least the past 2yrs any way)

There is no need to be stepping my mash (I do mash out @ 70+) with the modified grain I use, mostly 80% Pale malt, 10% wheat malt & 10% Flaked maize.
A stepping regime may well be worth a try one day but I can do it by decoction.

Besides, even if my efficiencies are actually a bit off. I'm producing the type of beer I like any way???

That's not to say that I'm totally dis-interested in my efficiency, it's just not critical, as long as I'm pump'n out good beer!

Mick.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby billybushcook » Friday Sep 10, 2010 1:09 pm

Bum wrote:This is what he is talking about. He's suggesting that the only way to make good beer is through the use of a direct fired mash tun.

Then risk Hot Side aeration as I transfer/slop a full mash to a lauter tun?????
No thanks!

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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby bullfrog » Friday Sep 10, 2010 1:25 pm

billybushcook wrote:Speedie,
I do keep extensive records of my brews (at least the past 2yrs any way)

There is no need to be stepping my mash (I do mash out @ 70+) with the modified grain I use, mostly 80% Pale malt, 10% wheat malt & 10% Flaked maize.
A stepping regime may well be worth a try one day but I can do it by decoction.

Besides, even if my efficiencies are actually a bit off. I'm producing the type of beer I like any way???

That's not to say that I'm totally dis-interested in my efficiency, it's just not critical, as long as I'm pump'n out good beer!

Mick.

And that's what it all boils down to, at the end of the day; consistency. If you know that you are going to get a brewhouse efficiency of ~x% then you can tailor your grain bills to suit and still produce stunning beer every time. The reason that I was looking to increase my efficiency was that when I upgraded my equipment (ie. bought an urn) I started getting much lower figures and wanted to try and get them back to around what they had been prior.

Also, Speedie, what did you mean when you said that you assumed my bag had a false bottom? The idea of a bag is to BE a false bottom. You essentially said that you were of the impression that my false bottom had a false bottom. Also, your suggestions that people get another esky and blah blah blah is entirely irrelevant in this thread, which was initially made to discuss BIAB methods. BIAB is a single vessel procedure.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby squirt in the turns » Friday Sep 10, 2010 3:49 pm

billybushcook wrote:
Bum wrote:This is what he is talking about. He's suggesting that the only way to make good beer is through the use of a direct fired mash tun.

Then risk Hot Side aeration as I transfer/slop a full mash to a lauter tun?????
No thanks!

Mick.


Apologies for going off-topic again here, but isn't aeration much less of an issue pre-boil? Any oxygen introduced will be driven off by boiling anyway, so I would have thought you could be pretty reckless with both aeration and sanitation before the boil, if your post-boil practices were up to scratch.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby bullfrog » Friday Sep 10, 2010 4:05 pm

squirt in the turns wrote:
billybushcook wrote:
Bum wrote:This is what he is talking about. He's suggesting that the only way to make good beer is through the use of a direct fired mash tun.

Then risk Hot Side aeration as I transfer/slop a full mash to a lauter tun?????
No thanks!

Mick.


Apologies for going off-topic again here, but isn't aeration much less of an issue pre-boil? Any oxygen introduced will be driven off by boiling anyway, so I would have thought you could be pretty reckless with both aeration and sanitation before the boil, if your post-boil practices were up to scratch.

The philosophy that I brew by. If HSA was an issue pre-boil then I'd have a hard time with my current sparge/bag drain method.
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Re: Stirring the mash

Postby gregb » Friday Sep 10, 2010 7:14 pm

billybushcook wrote:... it's just not critical, as long as I'm pump'n out good beer!


And here endeth the lesson.
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