HELP! Am I over sparging? Sollutions?

[hirns]

I’ve noticed that my AG brews have all taking on a particular flavour to the extent that a Dr Smurto’s Golden Ale does not taste all that much different to my other AG recipes and I suspect tannins, but really don’t have anything to qualify this being a long way from anyone to compare with!

I use Wassa’s technique,
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9775#p97270
but as my esky is only 27L, so I usually sparge twice (wherein probably lies the obvious!)
I use a standard 2.61l of water per kilo with the original mash.

After the mash I work out the litres needed to make I need to make 27.57l pre-boil volume to match my equipment after the initial 2.61l/kg original mash. After determining the extra litres required, I add the first half at boiling or 93 degrees to gets the grain to 76-78c and then add the second half of the sparge water at 82c to get 76-78. I leave each sparge for 15 minutes before doing a voulouf and then draining.
Q1. What is my obvious problem (be nice)?
Q2. What is the solution bearing in mind the 27L esky?
Cheers
Hirns

[warra48]

I use a 25 litre Willow cooler for my mash tun.
I also need to batch sparge twice to collect my desired pre-boil volume of 32 litres.
The temperatures I use are very similar to yours.

So, I don't think your problem is in the method you are using. Tannin extraction is Ph and temperature dependent, and I don't believe your method outlined will lead to tannin extraction.

What is the grain bill you are using?
What's the analysis of your water, and what, if any, other salts do you add to it?

I think, as a first option, your water may be an area to investigate.

I use pure rain water, and add salts to make up the appropriate profile for the style of beer I'm brewing. I think DrSmurto does the same thing. I certainly don't have issues with tannin extraction.

[hirns]

Thanks Warra for the response.

I filter via a Brita, and I use Ph 5.2 to adjust the ph. At times I've added 1/2 teaspoon of salt, but have not noted any real difference.

Might add that as I have two 19l pots, so I do TWO 14L BOILS which then may double any previous negatives or off tastes! One boil is chilled and then mixed with the other (both after being chilled).

Hirns

[rotten]

I think your most likely source would be the temp of your 1st or 2nd sparge. Just to clarify do you mash-in as well? I aim for for 85c to hit 76c ish in the mash tun. I also then leave it for 15 mins before drain. The general rule is to sparge, or mash in, out, with the water being 10c higher than your strike water temp. You would already know to allow for your own set-up. I add 5c to all my target temps (according to brewmate).
I know Warra adds boiling water to reach his temps like you, each to their own, it's just not something I would do.
Maybe someone can add a more detailed technical reason than myself.
Cheers and good luck.

[hirns]

Mash in @72C to gain approx 66C from 60min to 90min depending upon the recipe. THen I go the 93C(1/2 needed for final volume) followed by the 82C(1/2 needed for final volume(always have the bed sit around 76 for the sparg).

Hirns

[rotten]

Cool (or hot)
Don't think it's that then, back to the drawing board for me.

[drsmurto]

Can you describe the flavour?

Tannins are like chewing on a wet, used teabag.

What recipes have you done that all taste similar?

[billybushcook]

Mash in @72C to gain approx 66C from 60min to 90min depending upon the recipe. THen I go the 93C(1/2 needed for final volume) followed by the 82C(1/2 needed for final volume(always have the bed sit around 82 for the sparg).

Hirns

In your original post you said your grain bed was always around 76 - 78 when sparging but above you say 82, Am I reading this right?
I would think 82 was a bit high?
I batch sparge at low to mid 70's & don't seem to have a problem (I also mash in the low 60's for most of mine)

The two pot boil thingy must be a pain,

Mick.

[hirns]

Billy, I've edited that, it was meant to read that I add the second lot of sparge water at 82C to acheive a grain bed temp of 76 to 78C. It's been a while, but do you recall anything of my Treefrog ale from the Chistmas lotto?


DrSmurto, I would desribe it as wet cardboardy or yeah perhaps the teabag taste and it is an undertone in all brews which have all been ales ranging from Tony's LCBA to Landlords with boils(vigorous) varying from 60 to 90min.

I'm aiming to put down an AG in the next few days after a significant break from AG brewing, this in itself may be a cure for some ingrained habbit which may be causing an issue.

Hirns

[Tipsy]

I would desribe it as wet cardboardy

Sounds oxidised

[speedie]

try this
stop sparging when the reading has reached about 1007
see if this has any effect on your brewing
(qoute from brewing by michael j lewis)
excessive sparging ie collecting a volume beyond the normal evaporation rate of the kettle, may detrimental to wort quality
and inefficent because the kettle boil must be extended to reach required gravity
it rarely pays to recover worts much below 1.5 plato (1006)
thought that tis may bring some light on what is presented as my writing skills are not all that flowery
cheers speedie

[hirns]

Tipsy, everything is syphoned and not splashed until cooled, but I will pay particular attention to this area. Speedie; will check the runnings as I've never been shy of meeting my OG, but have not gone beyond it either.

Might aim for an oatmeal stout as my next brew. Have not done a dark brew before so it may hide or shed some light on things.


Hirns

[drsmurto]

try this
stop sparging when the reading has reached about 1007
see if this has any effect on your brewing
(qoute from brewing by michael j lewis)
excessive sparging ie collecting a volume beyond the normal evaporation rate of the kettle, may detrimental to wort quality
and inefficent because the kettle boil must be extended to reach required gravity
it rarely pays to recover worts much below 1.5 plato (1006)
thought that tis may bring some light on what is presented as my writing skills are not all that flowery
cheers speedie

Ah speedie, again you fail to read the post properly.

Your comment refers to fly sparging and Hirns clearly states he is a batch sparger.

Time to crawl back under your rock old boy.

Agree with Tipsy, wet cardboard = oxidised which suggests to me that the issue is post ferment. Too much turbulence when racking or transferring can cause oxidation which will rapidly rear its ugly head in the form of wet cardboard.

[hirns]

Dr. S it is a possibility as I've found bottled beers to be less effected than their kegged counterpart. And I seem to recall that the issue became more prevalent when I started to filter with my 1 micron filter (despite bleeding). This would make sense as it is similar to the tast I had in my firt AG brews when I boiled with the lid on! I do rack via syphoning so I don't think the issue is here.

Thanks, starting to see a diagnosis1

Hirns

[hirns]

Can this also occur from leaving the brew in the barrell too long(ie 14 to 21 days) depending on the yeast?

[speedie]

while i am under my rock reading brewing manuals on sparging would you be soo! kind as to direct me to page number so and so where it states that there is any noteable differance between either method of rinsing the grain?
this is the question
to rinse or not to rinse
man just ask a BIABER

[bullfrog]

I BIAB and I sparge (mixture of batch and fly sparging) and I don't know what you're talking about, Speedie. As far as I can decipher, you're now saying 'either sparge or don't,' which is quite different to what you were saying earlier.

There clearly is a massive difference between the two methods and your advice does only pertain to fly sparging. How is somebody supposed to 'stop sparging' half-way through a batch sparge?

[rotten]

got your knickers in a twist again speedie?

[speedie]

ok lads
lets have a lay down messire
if i can answer some of the questions asked do you (all ) concider this a help or hinderance
your good friend smarto clearly had a go at me for no reason at all
this i find unexceptable
my comments on either way to rinse the grain is another tonuge in cheek reply
if we all are trying to achieve a maximum yeild then it is a giveme that we must sparge (batch or fly)
now rotto do you see why my nickers may have or had been twisted
i dont come to this site to insite
f--- man there are better things to do
so if there is an astringent taste in hirns beer wouldnt it be more helpfull to reasonable discuss this rather that all the name calling
lets brew togther nor apart
speedster

[bullfrog]

He had a go because your advice isn't at all relevant. Seems like a reason to me, Speedie. Saying that you failed to read the post properly is hardly name calling if it's obviously accurate.