Steeping V's Minimash?

[billybushcook]

What's the main difference between Steeping some Grain & doing a Mini Mash?
From what I can Gather, both require the same temp, is it just simply the soak time or the difference in volume?

Am I right in thinking that even with only a 15Min steep, it is still necessary to do a boil & kill any bugs?

I have some Pale Crystal on the way from Ross at Craft brewer, along with my "Tempmate" & was wanting to try Steeping again, (just out of curiosity of course) but to my mind I would be doing a minimash as I plan to steep 125g just below 66C (64-65 for the more dry, crisp flavours) & if it was up to an hr, wouldn't it be classed as a Mini mash?

So the Plan is:-
Coopers APA (Been getting really good results with this kit at a consistant 22C with std yeast & BE2)
BE2
125g Pale Crystal - Steep for 15 or go the full hr (Q. what difference will it make to the end product??)
Possably some PoR towards the end of the boil.
Stick with the Coopers Yeast for the first one & then use the SO4 I have for subsequent beers (only wanting to change 1 thing at a time!) Or go the SO4 for the first few & then start steeping?
(I havn't used the S04 yet because I have been waiting for the Tempmate)

Any Thoughts???

Cheers, Mick.

[drsmurto]

Steeping for 15 mins or 3 days will make little difference to the final product.

All you are doing is rinsing the sugars off the grains.

In a mash enzymes are converting the starches into sugars.

The technique is similar.

So aiming for 63C to steep as opposed to 70C wont change the dryness of your beer. That can only be achieved by mashing the base malt yourself (IMO and not attempting to open up a kit vs AG debate).

What you get from steeping crystal malt and adding it to your kit beer is extra colour and flavour (caramel/toffee).

You should always boil the liquor after steeping regardless of how long or at what temp you steep at to kill any bugs that may be on the grain.

When you say Coopers yeast do you mean real coopers yeast from a bottle of Coopers or the yeast under the lid?

If its the kit yeast then go for the S-04.

Adding crystal malt, fresh hops and a good yeast are a great way of improving your beers. As a preference i would be ditching the BE2 and going a tin of coopers liquid malt extract......

[billybushcook]

Thx Doc,
What is the liquid malt extract made up of??

I had understood the different enzymes & their role in converting starches to sugars (from studying up on corn mash Bourbon some time ago) but only found out over the weekend that the Speciality Grains have been already mashed as oppossed to base malts being un mashed (RE John Palmers site)

So I have been bitten by curiosity, & all I need to try a mash is a large stock pot because I already have a 50L kettle (read Keg) with 16M of 3/4" copper coils in it, It is actually a heat exchanger I made for my "Camp shower" so at least one AG is not out of the question!
The main aim of me trying to steep grain again (tried it 10yrs ago with no idea!) is to try & bring a freshness to the beers, kinda like adding fresh Parsley or Basil right at the end of cooking a dish, just before serve!

I have been using kit yeast & have brewed some absolute stonkers of beers with it, which make the others, although very drinkable, seem a little average , It is this subtle inconsistancy which I would like to weed out & leaves me wondering is it the concentrate or the yeast, I have always had a good result with the Coopers kit yeast but some ordinary ones when using others.

Q. why is it that everyone thinks kit yeasts are so bad, provided they have been handled (read Temp) properly during transit?

Cheers, Mick.

[drsmurto]

Yeast plays a huge part in beer and i believe that it is this fact that is largely overlooked by most new and/or kit brewers.

Kit yeast is designed to be fool proof. Low lag times, quick ferments over a wide range of temps.

The next step up is branded dry yeasts. Saf range for example. The range has yeasts for specific beer styles but still are designed to get going quickly.

Liquid yeasts have the widest range - i have more than 15 strains in my fridge, 9 of which are just for english ales! Each one produces a different flavour profile in the beer.

I find deciding on what yeast to use for my english beers the hardest part of designing the recipe. The sooner brewers realise just how important our little friend Saccharomyces cerevisiae is the better your beer will be.

S-04 is an english ale yeast. If you are making a coopers pale style beer then i would be using the real yeast cultured up from a few bottles of the real deal. The yeast in the bottle is the same one as used for primary fermentation and will give you the flavour profile that CPA has.

And finally, it depends on your HBS as to how the yeast has been handled. Check the use by date on the yeast. As with all things, fresh is best.

[Kevnlis]

Water is for the majority of beers, the most important part of AG brewing (and since that is the sub forum we are in, I will stick to that).

As Doc has mentioned, yeast is also very important, and for some styles can even be more important that water!

The hops and malt can really be left out completely, and you will still have beer (I promise this is the truth, look up Scotch ale which has no hops, and try a gluten free beer made with no malted grain).

So it comes down to beer style. If you want to make an English Bitter, you are going to need to worry about your water, unless you live in Adelaide, you are probably alright there. If you want to make a Dunkel Hefe, you better have the right bloody yeast, but the water will have no real impact on the final product!

Now that I have gone right off topic, I will try to answer the original question.

The difference between steeping and mini-mashing comes down to the type of grain you are using, and the result you wish to get from said grain. If you are making a K&K stout and want to liven it up a bit with some roasted barley, steeping is the go. If you want to make a Pilsner with fresh grain flavours, you will have to mini-mash with some light enzymatic malt.

If you want to clone CPA, send me a PM!

[billybushcook]

Thx guys,
Not so sure I want to replicate the store bought CPA, I bought 3 bottles last night to farm some yeast from & they were gastly!!!
too Hoppy & had an aftertaste which hung in the mouth, almost muddy, I openend one of mine to do a side by side comparison & mine was much different, smooth all rounded mouth feel & a crisp freshness which did not hang too long, slightly more body.......& that was a batch which has only been in the bottle for 3 weeks/maybe 4.

Spent most of the night finishing off my cooling system, will post pics in another thread!

Cheers, Mick.

[Kevnlis]

I wouldn't call it gastly mate! Your AG HB might be better, but you have to keep in mind that Coopers aim to maximise profit and please the majority. I reckon they do a damn fine job compared to the other megaswill producers in this country...

[Trough Lolly]

What's the main difference between Steeping some Grain & doing a Mini Mash?
From what I can Gather, both require the same temp, is it just simply the soak time or the difference in volume?

Am I right in thinking that even with only a 15Min steep, it is still necessary to do a boil & kill any bugs?

I have some Pale Crystal on the way from Ross at Craft brewer, along with my "Tempmate" & was wanting to try Steeping again, (just out of curiosity of course) but to my mind I would be doing a minimash as I plan to steep 125g just below 66C (64-65 for the more dry, crisp flavours) & if it was up to an hr, wouldn't it be classed as a Mini mash?

G'day Mick,
As the responses have implied, there are some similarities to steeping compared to a (mini) mash, but they're done for very different reasons. It's about the grain you use. If you have pale crystal malt, you only need to steep it. The maltster has already done the job of converting available starches to sugar during a mild kilning process and the sugars are essentially in crystalline form on the grain, hence the term crystal malt. All you need to do is wash the sugars off the grains in warm water - hence steeping, as you do a teabag in a cup. Temperature control isn't essential when steeping. But you should avoid temps above 70C because you run the risk of extracting harsh / astringent tannin flavours from the grain husks. You won't get a dryer or fuller beer by adjusting the steep temperature because the pale crystal malt has lost (denatured) it's enzymes during the kilning process at the maltster.

A mash takes malted grain, adds it to water and the water hydrolises/activates the enzymes in the grains to seek out and convert the starch molecules in the milled grains and turn those starch molecules into sugar. Varying the mash water temperature will have an impact on the final product because the different types of enzymes (amylase enzymes) will prefer to operate at different temperatures - low 60's will produce a dryer crisper tasting wort, whereas a fuller bodied beer will result if you mash around 70C...

The hour bit is a generally accepted parameter that brewers use to mash their grainbill. Some brewers mash for 90 mins or longer, others less - in fact, most of the starch to sugar conversion will be done and dusted in the first 20 to 30 minutes of a mash, thanks to the diastatic power of malted barley, wheat etc that we use nowadays.

So, steep the pale crystal and next time, pick up some "base malt" from Ross - tell him you want to do a minimash and he'll sort you out with the appropriate grains...And your tastebuds will thank you for it!

Cheers,
TL

[billybushcook]

I wouldn't call it gastly mate! Your AG HB might be better, but you have to keep in mind that Coopers aim to maximise profit and please the majority. I reckon they do a damn fine job compared to the other megaswill producers in this country...

Kev, it was my usual K&K brew....CPA, BE2 & kit yeast & it shat on it!!!
each to their own of course!

A mash takes malted grain, adds it to water and the water hydrolises/activates the enzymes in the grains to seek out and convert the starch molecules in the
TL

TL,
don't you mean UN-malted grain?? isn't the process of mashing doing the malting??

Cheers, Mick.

[warra48]

A mash takes malted grain, adds it to water and the water hydrolises/activates the enzymes in the grains to seek out and convert the starch molecules in the
TL

TL,
don't you mean UN-malted grain?? isn't the process of mashing doing the malting??

Cheers, Mick.

NO. Mashing is the conversion of malted grain. The enzymes in malted grain convert the soluble starches to sugar. The sugars are what we extract, and the fermentable sugars are fermented into alcohol, the unfermentable sugars contribute to colour and flavour.

Have a read of this chapter from Palmer's "How to Brew". It should help to explain the malting process and the difference between malted and unmalted grains.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12.html

[billybushcook]

Ahh yes coming back to me now!!!

Years ago I tried "malting" Corn to make Bourbon by germinating the kernels in a warm moist environment, then dried them out. that went OK.
then tried to ferment them straight up.....no mashing....Total failure of course!!!!

So the bottom line is that the base malts we buy from HB shops have been malted (germinated) & the speciality grains have been both malted & mashed thats why they are for steeping! there for with specialty grains we have no control over what enzymes are produced hense what caracteristics they posses?

I steeped some Pale Crystal this morning for 1/2hr @ 66 - 64C & put down a CPA, bit of a mess compared to what I'm used to, pots & burners......& the bloody flies!!!! I think every fly within 100 K radius zeroed in on me once I started that boil....Still using a kit yeast for this one, so I can see what the difference is.
Reluctant to use the yeast I farmed from those bottles of Coopers, for one, I didn't like the beer (mainly because it was too hoppy) & second because from the ones I've seen they always tend to have a few floaters in them, where as the my HB's tend to have a nice firm & distinct yeast left stuck to the bottom of the bottle.
I now have 3 pks of SO4, so will giving them a go once I get my Temp mate boxed up.

Cheers, Mick.

[Trough Lolly]

So the bottom line is that the base malts we buy from HB shops have been malted (germinated) & the speciality grains have been both malted & mashed thats why they are for steeping! there for with specialty grains we have no control over what enzymes are produced hense what caracteristics they posses?

Yes. Specialty Grains, eg crystal malt, has been mashed and kilned. The kilning kills the enzymes so we simply wash out the pale/dark sugars and go to the boil.

[billybushcook]

Cool!!

Mick.