Can't seem to get it right.

The ins and outs of putting your beer into kegs.

Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby speedie » Monday Sep 06, 2010 8:40 pm

did you get your kegs anna?
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby Charles74 » Sunday Jan 02, 2011 12:13 pm

Heals, don't give up. The solution could be simpler than you think.

I've been making homebrew for 17 years; two and a half years ago, I got into kegging. I have four full kegs, I drink one per week, and I fill and drink them on a neat 3 - 4 week cycle. I've never had a problem with any of them. Here are a few secrets to my brewing success over the years. Some of them might challenge conventional wisdom, but the results speak for themselves.

1. I never use steriliser solution, powders, nothing. Boiling / hot water and light detergents only.
2. I never scrub anything with anything metalic or abrasive. Just use a trusty rough sponge (Oates make the best ones)
3. Every hose and joint gets flushed with boiling water before tapping a new keg.
4. All kegs seals get replaced every two years. Spend $30 and purchase a lovely 22mm Sidchrome ring spanner. Among the many I own, it is my favourite tool.
5. When kegs are empty, splash them out with boiling water and give them a light chage of CO2. This will act as a natural inhibitor against the growth of anything nasty. Blast whatever's left in the dip tube also.

Good luck - let me know if you're doing all of this. If you are let me know. I'll have a brew and think about it.
Beer is my language.
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby Burt » Monday Jan 03, 2011 9:56 am

Charles, how well does the hot water work on beer stone?
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby Charles74 » Monday Jan 03, 2011 10:55 am

My approach has always been proactive rather than reactive, Burt. I've never seen or tasted any evidence of beerstone on any of my beer equipment or in any of my beers (with one possible exception = see below).

That being said, if you've got evidence of beerstone, something more than hot water might be needed.

When I started brewing, I was very orthodox about sterilisation. Over the ensuing years, I took a few chances and departed from the overkill approach of sterilising. Mind you, I take very good care with cleaning and rinsing. The result? Absolutely no difference whatsoever. Never an infected brew, never a bad tasting beer. Light abrasive cleaners, light detergents only, boiling water. While sterilisers sterilise, boiling water kills.

The only thing that might come close would be beers that were a little 'musky' after being brewed in a 10-year-old fermenter once. They did contain microbes which caused the beer to keep brewing, though the sugars were completely fermented and the fermenter appeared sterile. The hotter the weather, the more this process was accelerated. That summer was the only time I've ever had bottles explode. As plastic is porous, no matter how much it is scrubbed or sterilised it wil collect lots of nasties over time. I chuck my fermenters out after two years. Everything else is kept as is.

I believe beerstone might be more predisposed to thriving on / in porous surfaces (as opposed to metals and glasses), but I can't conclude this with absolute certainty. In any case, apart from those exploding bottles, everything else has been perfect in 17 years.
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby matr » Tuesday Jan 04, 2011 10:06 am

Never heard of this "Beerstone" before. So I looked it up.

HOLY SHIT!! :shock:

Calcium oxalate, as 'beerstone', is a brownish precipitate that tends to accumulate within vats, barrels and other containers used in the brewing of beer. If not completely removed in a cleaning process, beerstone will leave an unsanitary surface that can harbour microorganisms.

Even a small dose of calcium oxalate is enough to cause intense sensations of burning in the mouth and throat, swelling, and choking that could last for up to two weeks.[2] In greater doses it can cause severe digestive upset, breathing difficulties, coma or even death. Recovery from severe oxalate poisoning is possible, but permanent liver and kidney damage may have occurred.
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby rotten » Tuesday Jan 04, 2011 7:47 pm

I'm ****ed then
Beer numbs all zombies !!!
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby drsmurto » Tuesday Jan 04, 2011 8:36 pm

You get beerstone in the bottom of a perfectly smooth stainless steel pot (kettle). As matr pointed out it's largely calcium oxalate but i wouldn't worry too much about it's toxicity. To get a fraction of the symptoms listed you would need to be licking the bottom of your kettle. Daily. :shock: :lol:

Soaking in sodium percarbonate for a few days removes it. PBW gets rid of it in a few minutes as i discovered yesterday when i used it for the first time. Very impressed.

As for sanitising with boiling water as Charles74 advocates, that is what you call anecdotal evidence. As opposed to proof. Take that approach at your peril. Boiling water might kill a few bugs but it's a gamble and the odds are not that good.

A good no rinse sanitiser costs very little in the long run and takes no more effort than splashing boiling water around.

No offence intended Charles74. If it works for you and you're happy then that's fine by me. I just can't sit back and watch this sort of information being read and taken as gospel by new brewers. It's not good practice.
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby rotten » Tuesday Jan 04, 2011 9:47 pm

I use sodium percarbonate (napisan vanish)(unscented of course) and it has worked for countless brews. I will go to no rinse eventually.
Cheers

P.S. while charles condones the hot water, I won't be doing it. Even though I rinse with town water :o
The mrs doesn't understand that either.
quote "why do you spend all that time to santise, yet you rinse with town water?"
answer "we have good town water", and we do!!
Beer numbs all zombies !!!
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby chadjaja » Wednesday Jan 05, 2011 7:11 am

I have a three way approach..

I have a lucky rock
Sod perc
starsan..

The rock was meant to keep tigers away but it also works to keep infection out of my kegs/lines/taps 8)
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby Charles74 » Wednesday Jan 05, 2011 7:18 am

drsmurto, I never said anything about it being gospel.
Beer is my language.
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby SuperBroo » Wednesday Jan 05, 2011 12:43 pm

"To get a fraction of the symptoms listed you would need to be licking the bottom of your kettle. Daily."

Looks like I'm stuffed too then :)
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby hirns » Sunday Jan 09, 2011 9:49 am

drsmurto wrote:You get beerstone in the bottom of a perfectly smooth stainless steel pot (kettle). As matr pointed out it's largely calcium oxalate but i wouldn't worry too much about it's toxicity. To get a fraction of the symptoms listed you would need to be licking the bottom of your kettle. Daily. :shock: :lol:

Soaking in sodium percarbonate for a few days removes it. PBW gets rid of it in a few minutes as i discovered yesterday when i used it for the first time. Very impressed.


Another solution to disolving beer stone in the kettle. I used white vinager for a 15 minute soak in the bottom of my brewpot. I went to scrub it with a green scotch pad, but it wiped straight off.

Cheers

Hirns
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby speedie » Saturday Jan 15, 2011 8:05 pm

you get beer stone another way
and only time clears it
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby lethaldog » Sunday Jan 16, 2011 12:48 pm

speedie wrote:you get beer stone another way
and only time clears it

??? Huh??? Do you speaka da anglish??
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Leigh
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Re: Can't seem to get it right.

Postby matr » Sunday Jan 16, 2011 1:14 pm

lethaldog wrote:
speedie wrote:you get beer stone another way
and only time clears it

??? Huh??? Do you speaka da anglish??


I think he may be referring to Kidney Stones???

From Wiki: "Calcium oxalate crystals in the urine are the most common constituent of human kidney stones"

But then again who f'in knows most of the time?? :?
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