Cask Conditioning

The ins and outs of putting your beer into kegs.

Cask Conditioning

Postby muddy » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 11:13 am

Could you use the container from a fresh wort pack to cask conditon and dispense beer?

I am thinking - ferment your brew and then bulk prime 15 litres in the fresh wort container. Seal and let carbonate. Chill, place inside a cover of sorts on the bar at a party / chrissy day etc. Pour from the tap in the container - bingo cask conditioned ale.

Has anyone heard of this or tried this?

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Postby rwh » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 1:11 pm

I seriously doubt it'd hold the pressure.
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Postby WSC » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 1:13 pm

Often thought about this with the 20 litre water bottles we use for camping.

Never tried it though.
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Postby muddy » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 2:31 pm

Thats what I intially thought rwh, but I thought I would ask as I got this idea from a very reputable HBS owner.

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Postby shane_vor » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 3:10 pm

I reckon the screw top may hold the pressure, not sure about the choice of tap though.

Give it a try. If it works I too might give it a go (got enough of the bloody things floating around!!!)
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Postby gregb » Tuesday Sep 26, 2006 7:31 pm

It may work, cask conditioned ales are not noted for being highly carbonated. Suggest at snap tap rather than one you turn.

Give it a whirl and let us know if it is a good or bad plan.

Cheers,
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Postby WSC » Wednesday Sep 27, 2006 9:18 pm

After thinking about this some more I think it would work provided the vessel could hold the pressure.

How do the 5 L kegs you see every now and then from XXXX and others work?

They dispense straight from the keg using gravity and no gas except what it was sealed with.

Anyone know exactly how the 5L kegs work?
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Postby Ed » Wednesday Sep 27, 2006 9:39 pm

Pretty interested in this thread too. I reckon that smaller vessels would be the go. The problems I see is venting. Just how do you get the beer out without venting. And if you vent, then the beer isn't going to last that long before it's buggered and/or completely out of gas. So the brew needs to be consumed within days = small vessel.

Maybe 5 litres would be perfect.

Other thing I was thinking, and I know it's not traditional for cask but, what if you used a lager yeast and fermented cold and then kept the beer cold. The CO2 produced during fermentation would stay in suspension so no extra carbonation required and it wouldn't leave even if vented. Might just work on something like a Baltic Porter?

Cheers, Ed
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Postby muddy » Friday Sep 29, 2006 10:05 am

Have been going mad thinking about this so went back to HBS where the idea was formed. He said "make a lid like an OZ TOP'.

I asked what an Oz Top was and it is a kit (yeast vials and pressure valve bottle tops) for use in turning your standard shop bought juice into a fizzy alcoholic treat (great for the cricket). Anyway the lid is a normal 2 litre juice bottle lid however there is a small 'nipple' in the middle which has a slit in it. When the pressure builds up, it is released through this simple valve.

Am gonna try to make same on lid for fresh wort kit.

Also regards to how much pressure the vessel has to withstand - think English pub with cask beer on counter. As far as I am aware these casks have a common bung/plug as their sole seal. Push in plug. Nothing more.

I always intended this idea to be for my beloved English ales which have limited fizz so I am thinking this is gonna be a goer.

Will let you know the results (if I can stop making alcoholic fruit juice for a few days).

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Postby Dogger Dan » Friday Sep 29, 2006 10:49 am

Muddy,

I have a few of those for standard screw top bottles

I will post about them on the weekend. Great stuff this.

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Postby Ed » Friday Sep 29, 2006 12:22 pm

Some interesting reading from the HBD.

Cheers, Ed

5L Mini-Kegs
Robert L. Lamothe
The 5L mini-keg is the perfect thing for the person who wants to try kegging for the first time. Small, economicle and re-usable, mini-kegs store easily, are easy to clean and can fit in a refrigerator during dispensing. There are a few tips to keep in mind with these kegs:

Size:
5 liter, or approximately the same as a 12 pack, 4 5l kegs can accomodate a 5 gallon batch.
Cost:
$5 to 6$ per keg, $0.75 to $1 per bung, $14 to $60 per tap.
Taps:
There are several different taps, Gravity feed, this tap is the cheapest of all the taps to purchase, however it requires peircing a hole in the keg to allow air to enter to replace the volume removed by the beer. Air Pump, similar to the hand pump type tap provided by beer distributors when renting a keg. CO2, similar to the air pump in style but uses CO2 dispensed from small cartridges to propel the beer from the keg.
Unless you plan on drinking an entire keg in one sitting, then it is advisable to use a CO2 tap. These can either be plastic or metal and use seltzer style CO2 cartridges for pressure. CO2 taps generally run between $30 and $60. Cartridges run $10 to $12 per box of 10 and come in two sizes, 8 gram and 16 gram, 16 gram recommended.
Priming:
When priming a 5L mini-keg use about 1/2 the normal amount for bottling. This would be 1/3 cup Corn Sugar or 2/3 cup Dried Malt Extract for an entire 5 gallon batch. Over priming could result in dented or exploding kegs.
Tapping:
Draw off the first beer or two with the internal pressure from Conditioning. Then apply pressure in short bursts, putting only enough CO2 into the keg to draw off another beer or two. This method will allow you to get 1 to 1.5 kegs per cartridge.
Cleaning:
Remove the rubber stopper from the keg, this can take quite a bit of effort. Fill the keg about 1/3 of the way with water and then invert the keg over the sink letting the water fall out. The plastic bung will be pulled along with the water and fall out into the sink. Then put your jet-spray bottle washer on the faucet and blast the inside of the keg to remove the slurry. Re-fill the keg with water and a teaspoon of bleach and let soak for a few minutes, drain the keg and re-rinse with the jet-spray. Allow to dry inverted and replace the dust cover when fully dry.
Sanitizing:
Add 1 Teaspoon of B-Brite (or similar) to each keg, fill with warm water to the top and allow to sit for several minutes. Drain water and blast with a jet-spray bottle washer to rinse.
Filling:
Fill each keg to within an inch of the top, this is just about the bottom of the top "band" on the keg. Over filling the keg will result in reduced carbonation levels.
Sealing:
There are many ways to seat a bung in a mini-keg, however this is the technique I prefer. After filling the keg, seat the bung in the bunghole and press it in tight. Let the keg sit for 5 or more minutes to allow CO2 pressure to build up inside the keg. Using a standard hammer tap bung into place, the built up pressure in the keg will help the keg maintain its shape and resist denting. With practice all it takes is one or two good taps from the hammer to seat the bung.
Tapping:
Hold tap near the base of the rod with both hands and place on bung. Push rod straight down, driving bung into the keg. Slide tap down until seated, make certain lock tabs are securly fastened to the keg.
Long term dispensing:
When done with the keg for the day, give it one last good burst of pressure. This should allow you to drink your beer off tap for many days.
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Postby muddy » Tuesday Oct 03, 2006 11:07 am

Have a plan. I intend this week to cut a small hole in the middle of the fresh wort containers lid. About 10 mm diameter. Modify an OZ top by cutting the thread off leaving just the top section. Glue this inside the lid of the fresh wort pack. Obviously need non toxic glue but having it inside the lid should stop the problem of the pressure build up blowing the oz top of the top of the lid.

Over the weekend I put 12 litres water into fresh wort container - a heap of dextrose and pitched a coopers kit yeast into it. Overnight the pressure built up quite a lot. I then just unscrewed the lid slowly until pressure was just escaping. I left it like that for two days - slowly hissing but still with a pretty decent pressure built up within the container. I reckon that method would work a treat if you had the time to continually check that pressure build up was not too extreme.

Have an extract APA ready to bottle. Am gonna leave it till I get this lid modified and glued up then try the method with the oz top.

cheers

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Postby pacman » Tuesday Oct 03, 2006 8:41 pm

Several months ago I filled a 5L Bitburger mini keg with some of my batch of home brew, primed with 40g of sugar, and resealed top with original fittings.

Unsuccessful! Push button in top fitting could not hold secondary fermentation pressure, resulting in minor inconvenience!!!

Will try again when in the mood. But with a considerably reduced amount of priming sugar.

No reason why it shoudn't work. Once the appropriate priming addition has been ascertained.

Next step will be to ascertain what type of brew is suited to the lower carbonation level.
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Postby muddy » Tuesday Oct 24, 2006 2:27 pm

Been on leave - building an extension. Whilst on leave got the cask conditioning thing going. Man did I get excited when I found it successful and had 15 litres of carbed up Pale Ale ready to guzzle. I have never been that drunk on beer alone. But getting back to the cask - a standard 15 l fresh wort container. Drill small hole in lid, glue oz top to underside of lid - I used a low pressure 2 litre juice size lid, bulk prime for 15 litres into cask. Lid on - wait and bingo 2 weeks later I was a happy drunk.

Have made a cover out of oregon ply to cover the cask - sit it up on your bar and enjoy.

One problem was that I swilled it too quick and cant say how long it will remain gassed at same level for. Obvioulsy long enough for me!

Very easy and highly recommended.


cheers

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Postby Crowash » Tuesday Oct 24, 2006 3:21 pm

Are you able to post any pictures of said wort container turned keg?
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Postby WSC » Tuesday Oct 24, 2006 9:55 pm

Good call would love the pics.
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Postby muddy » Wednesday Oct 25, 2006 8:13 am

Didnt think of piccies the first go. Sorry but I am a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to technology. I am sure the missus and or kids have digital cameras so as I rack a Belhaven clone into it tonight I will document the whole deal and post .
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5L Kegs

Postby shermozle » Friday Nov 03, 2006 9:21 am

Hi there folks.

I used the 5L kegs quite successfully in London for a few years before I came back to Sydney a couple of months ago.

The ones I used are these:
http://www.rumble.net/gallery/Blog_Open ... _Litre_Keg

which came from a microbrewery in Blackheath, SE London.

The key was to use rubber pressure bungs from Hop and Grape (http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk) which cost about £1.50 each. These can vent overpressure, if needed.

I imagine you probably couldn't use these for really fizzy beers, but they work fine for ales.

I just wish I'd brought mine with me! I gave them to a mate.
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I should point out

Postby shermozle » Friday Nov 03, 2006 9:23 am

These mini kegs are made by a company in Germany. Perhaps we should order a bulk quantity? Given how light they are empty, though, it might be better to buy them filled with some lovely beer. Anything but DAB or Bitburger would probably be okay.
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Postby WSC » Wednesday Nov 15, 2006 9:31 pm

Muddy, have you got any pics for us yet?
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