Thoughts about keg setup.

The ins and outs of putting your beer into kegs.

Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby scanman » Monday Mar 17, 2008 5:01 pm

Hello everyone.
I am just about to embark on setting up my first keg system, mainly like most I am getting sick of washing and filling bottles. I have aquired the first item, a fridge, which is suitable, but I have run into a couple of snags, and though I can work around them, I thought I would come and talk to the experts here first about my dilemar.
Firstly, I have a nice bar, and when the suggetsion of the keg fridge and putting it near the bar came up the missus lost it and said no way. If you want it, it can go in the garage. So to keep her happy and still have my beer near the bar, I have decided to add a font to the bar. This is where my questions start.
Firstly, my bar is right in front of the wall which the garage also shares, so running lines from a fridge to the bar would not be a hassle. Just that to do it neatly would require adding a few more meters of tubing then normal. I haven't measured it up yet, but I am guessing 3 or 4 meters to get it from the side of the fridge, through the wall and along a conduate to the bar, then into the bar and into the font. Woudl this cause CO2 pressure and pouring issues??? I read somewhere there is a formula for using longer lines when kegging to get the pouring pressure right.
The other hting that worries me is keeping the ber cold enough from the fridge to the font. A flooded font is of cours ethe best option here, but they seem to cost an arm and a leg, and I would like to keep the cost down as much as I can. Would simply insulating the tubing to the font be good enough???? I thought maybe even running another pipe there and back and set up my own glycol pump the keep it cool.
Not sure on mind you on this, but I have been doing my research, but finding alternate ways it proving difficult. If all else failed I would consider a flooded font, and if so, does anyone know who sells them at a reasionable price. $800 for a two tap font seems crazy if you ask me.

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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Kevnlis » Monday Mar 17, 2008 5:21 pm

If it were me, I would not run that system without an insulated flooded line/font system. I would also dedicate a small bar freezer to the glycol line to keep things running nice and cool, if your not a daily drinker you could put a switch on the pump and cool the whole system in an hour or so. You can always turn the gas off when you are not serving so the length of line is not a real issue, but will waste a bit more gas to burp the kegs back down from pouring pressure to whatever your desired volumes of carbonation are.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Chris » Monday Mar 17, 2008 8:47 pm

If it were up to me, I'd call Ross at Craftbrewer. He knows a little bit about such things :)

Can't think of any better source of advice.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby DJ » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 6:37 am

Chris wrote:If it were up to me, I'd call Ross at Craftbrewer. He knows a little bit about such things :)

Can't think of any better source of advice.


I agree.. I spoke to Ross a few times when setting up my kegs and he is always helpful..
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby rwh » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 11:02 am

1. Pouring pressure vs line length, check out: Balancing a Draught System [login requried]. I personally am running 4m of beer line at 75kpa which works just fine. I reckon you could run up to 8m of line or even more without any problems, at say 100 or 125kpa, and your beer will probably still be less carbonated than the stuff you get at the pub.

2. Running the long line: Your beer will warm up in the line, which will mean that gas will become less soluble in the beer in the line, which will mean that the line will fill with gas and/or foam. What this means is that the first pour in a session will be a glass of foam. Once a bit of cold beer passes through the lines, it will cool the lines and the tap, which means subsequent pours should be ok. You can either live with this, and either set aside the first glass of foam to settle and then top it up, or you can just tip out the foam from your first pour. You will also find that your first pour will shoot a bit of pressurised gas into your glass before the beer starts to flow, which can cause splashing of beer into your face/onto walls etc. Might be worth just running a bit of beer into a small bucket or something. Or you could cool your lines (see 3).

3. Regarding a flooded font, you could go for one, or you could just rig up a system to cool only your lines, which would be a lot cheaper. The key here will be insulating the lines so that you don't lose too much heat and stress your fridge (and your power bill). You also probably want to avoid excessive condensation. You can get foam insulation tubes that you split up the side and then tape over your lines which should do a pretty good job of this.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Chris » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 11:38 am

You'll also need to take into account any height differences- if they vary too much.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby James L » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 2:05 pm

I think the easiest thing would be to try to reason with the missus.... Kinda defeats the purpose having a bar inside and then having to keep the beer outside...

Ask her how she'd feel if you put the food fridge in the garage... and she'd have to go out there all the time..

Otherwise just move the bar into the garage....

I couldnt imagine anything better than being able to pour a beer at your own bar..
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby DJ » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 2:09 pm

James L wrote:I think the easiest thing would be to try to reason with the missus....


:shock:

ya rekon?? I thought that would be the hardest bit! :mrgreen:
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby scanman » Tuesday Mar 18, 2008 2:18 pm

Dam right thats the hardest bit!! Tried that twice now. I give up on reasoning with the missus.

Code: Select all
Regarding a flooded font, you could go for one, or you could just rig up a system to cool only your lines, which would be a lot cheaper. The key here will be insulating the lines so that you don't lose too much heat and stress your fridge (and your power bill). You also probably want to avoid excessive condensation. You can get foam insulation tubes that you split up the side and then tape over your lines which should do a pretty good job of this.


Thanks RWH. This idea had actually crossed my mind. I thought of getting a standard font and insulating the lines. Even running extra tubing around the beer lines and looping it back, and running glycol through it and back to a coil in the freezer section. If anything this would be the easiest way to do this. Getting unsulation for the lines is pretty easy ( easier to get and much cheaper then a follded font system ). I was looking at the twin tapped font that you can get on ebay -http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Home-Brew-Chrome-or-Polished-Brass-Beer-Double-Font-Tap_W0QQitemZ260220029826QQihZ016QQcategoryZ150752QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m124

I emailed the seller and he says they are not flooded, but they probably have enough room in the stem to rig something up if you were clever enough, so this idea comes to mind as well.
If anyone has any extra thoughts on this let me know.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Brewaholic » Friday Mar 21, 2008 7:59 pm

Hi scanman you might be able to rig your own glycol system up using the freezer section but 4 metres is pretty long i would think that it with the speed it would need to be pumped around it would eventually defrost the freezer and be useless and warm up your fridge and kegs. Also when not in use the glycol might freeze maybe you could use 50-60% metho water mix.I Would prob get the biggest container that fits in the freezer and run a pond pump with 8 metres of insulated garden hose on a circut and moniter the liquid temp over say 8 hours or whatever your longest drinking session might be to work out if its viable and save setting up even more stuff that may not work. There are always flooded fonts on ebay for a couple of hundred dollars it would be worth it in the end IMHO i hate to be pouring good home brew down the drain. Consider also using a fridgemate because the colder the beer starts off the more it can heat up in the lines without affecting pouring. Say -2.5 to 4c you can loose 6.5 degrees without a problem. Well thats my 2 cents! If it was me i would just put a compact beer chiller under the bar :lol:
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby scanman » Saturday Mar 22, 2008 7:39 am

Thanks for the replies people.
Have decicided to bite the bullet for now and due to the many factors, such as keeping the missus happy, money and mucking around involved, just to get a typical starter system and stick it in the fridge I obtained as normal, with a tap on the door.
My Bar also has a small bar fridge built underneth it, but it does not have the room to hold post mix kegs ( I measured it up ), which is a shame as I would have just converted that.
My plan in the future maybe to get another bar fridge that fits in the bar and use that instead. But I think I have to start somewhere so for now its the bigger fridge and door tap.
I have some big plans for my keg fridge. I'll take some pics and post them here when I have done it.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Chris » Saturday Mar 22, 2008 2:40 pm

Try a 9L keg. They are $125 new at kegsonline.com.au at the moment. That is unbeatable value.
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Trough Lolly » Wednesday Mar 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Strewth that's cheap!

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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Chris » Wednesday Mar 26, 2008 5:08 pm

And it is a sexual experience when 4 arrive at your door :D :D :D
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby lethaldog » Wednesday Mar 26, 2008 5:28 pm

Chris wrote:And it is a sexual experience when 4 arrive at your door :D :D :D

:shock: My god Chris you really need to get out more :lol: :lol:
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Trough Lolly » Thursday Mar 27, 2008 8:54 am

Chris wrote:And it is a sexual experience when 4 arrive at your door :D :D :D


Yikes, $500 for four kegs! You must have burned up quite a few favor tokens with the missus!!
I had enough trouble buying 2 boxes of four 19L recon kegs from the US at US$160 a box, delivered!

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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Kevnlis » Thursday Mar 27, 2008 10:08 am

OK TL, I will bite, is this deal still available? I have been looking at buying 8 more kegs anyway and that is by far the cheapest I have seen them!
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby gregb » Thursday Mar 27, 2008 10:32 am

Kev,

It's for the 9L party kegs the website is in Chris' post above.
19L cornies can be found much cheaper.

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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Kevnlis » Thursday Mar 27, 2008 10:38 am

You know where to find reconditioned 19L kegs for less than $45 each, delivered?!?!

Now I am really getting excited!
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Re: Thoughts about keg setup.

Postby Trough Lolly » Thursday Mar 27, 2008 10:50 am

Brewers Discount in the US sells reconditioned 5 Gal cornies for US$24...http://www.brewersdiscount.com/index2.ivnu

There has been a lot said on AHB and other sites about Matt Chitea and his operation in the US, but I've done business with him (admittedly a long time ago) and it worked for me. They are reconditioned ex-pepsi kegs, some have dings in them but they all hold pressure. If you want sexy shiny new 9L kegs then the one's Chris bought are the go but if you want to get into kegging, this is about as cheap as you can get them - and admittedly you won't get them in a day or two like you would if you bought them locally - it's a nervous 13 week wait!!

The kegs, from memory when I bought them, cost me US$20 per keg and postage surface / seasnail mail was about US$75 for a box of four. If you do order from him, make sure you get some parts as well - they don't add much to the postage and you can't argue about 5 piece gasket kits for US$2.50, poppets at US$2.50 and disconnects (gas and/or beer) for US$4 each!! Hell, even his stainless disconnects are US$16.50! :shock:

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