I lashed out

The ins and outs of putting your beer into kegs.

I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Thursday Aug 14, 2008 9:51 pm

Well with a healthy Tax return, and a old fridge, and filling 60 stubbies on the weekend, I bought a Keg system Kit that comes with 2 19l Kegs, and I purchased another 2 19l kegs and a couple of Oring kits. I haven't thought about CO2 yet but can get that during the week besides I won't have any beer ready to put in it til next weekend anyway.

I expect delivery either this staurday or next saturday ( I can only get my mail/parcels Saturdays due to where i live), and being the type of person I am, and with a new toy, I'll be flat out fitting everything to the Fridge.
I thought I better ask these Questions before I start.

1. I notice most people have the Tap on the Door of the fridge, Is there any reason why I could not put it in one the sides ?? Do Fridges run pipes on the sides?? The side would better suit me where the fridge is going to be located.

2. Do you put support plates both sides of the tap to increase the load surface area, Fridge metal isn't all that thick and I'd be worried about metal fatigue

3. Hose Length, I would think the Shorter the better, allowing enough play/give length, Mounting the Tap higher than the Kegs

4. Having 4 Kegs, (the first I would try force carbonating because I would be hanging out to try it) is it be better to Bulk prime ( priming Sugar) for carbinating the beer or use the gas to carbinate. (@ 19l /keg =ing approx 2 cartons I figure I will go through a Keg a week).

5. I'm Thinking about having a hose from the drip tray gong back into the fridge where the dregs can be collected in a container, anything wrong with this Idea??

6. I live in VIC what sort of costs will CO2 cost.

Thanks I figure some of the answers will lead me to more questions.

Regards
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby lethaldog » Thursday Aug 14, 2008 10:09 pm

Fridge metal isn't all that thick and I'd be worried about metal fatigue


Wait till you try drilling it, trust me its plenty thick enough, i have 2 taps in my fridge door and the only thing fatigued was me after fitting them :lol: :wink:
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Re: I lashed out

Postby chadjaja » Friday Aug 15, 2008 7:26 am

And have a look at youtube. There are plenty of vids of fridge conversions on there that may be of some help.

Good luck you lucky bastard :D
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Re: I lashed out

Postby drsmurto » Friday Aug 15, 2008 9:47 am

1. I notice most people have the Tap on the Door of the fridge, Is there any reason why I could not put it in one the sides ?? Do Fridges run pipes on the sides?? The side would better suit me where the fridge is going to be located.


Either is fine, i have a font so the lines come out the side of the fridge up to the bar.

2. Do you put support plates both sides of the tap to increase the load surface area, Fridge metal isn't all that thick and I'd be worried about metal fatigue


As lethal said, fridges are pretty robust, dont bother

3. Hose Length, I would think the Shorter the better, allowing enough play/give length, Mounting the Tap higher than the Kegs


Have a read of this - Link

There are a lot of factors that influence the carbonation of your beer. Line length is just one of them.

4. Having 4 Kegs, (the first I would try force carbonating because I would be hanging out to try it) is it be better to Bulk prime ( priming Sugar) for carbinating the beer or use the gas to carbinate. (@ 19l /keg =ing approx 2 cartons I figure I will go through a Keg a week).


I force carb. others simply attach the keg at pouring pressure and wait a week. Either works. Force carbing is more of a black art than a science so be prepared for overcarbed beer. been kegging for a year now and only this week i managed to over carb a beer and have spent the last few days trying to bring the CO2 levels down.

I would never bulk prime a keg but thats just me. It works but then you have a lot of crap in the bottom of the keg. I spend too much time making sure my beer is as clear as possible so wouldnt undo that by priming the keg.

5. I'm Thinking about having a hose from the drip tray gong back into the fridge where the dregs can be collected in a container, anything wrong with this Idea??


Why? Just empty and clean it regularly you lazy bastard. Trust me, the shit that grows in a drip tray when you get lazy is not pretty.

6. I live in VIC what sort of costs will CO2 cost.


Cant help you with mexican $$$ but here in SA it cost me $120/year to rent the bottle and 30 something to refill it.

Cheers
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Friday Aug 15, 2008 1:33 pm

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone for their reply's.

drsmurto wrote:

Have a read of this - Link

There are a lot of factors that influence the carbonation of your beer. Line length is just one of them.
DrSmurto

Having just read that, it comes up with another question. A long break between empting 1 keg and and the next keg ready to drink after equalizing, that why I asked about Bulk Priming.
drsmurto wrote:

5. I'm Thinking about having a hose from the drip tray gong back into the fridge where the dregs can be collected in a container, anything wrong with this Idea??


Why? Just empty and clean it regularly you lazy bastard. Trust me, the shit that grows in a drip tray when you get lazy is not pretty.
DrSmurto

It's not that I'm that lazy , Just thinking about Warm summer days drinking and European wasps hanging around the tap/drip tray, I don't want to be cleaning it out after every pour.
drsmurto wrote:

6. I live in VIC what sort of costs will CO2 cost.


Cant help you with mexican $$$ but here in SA it cost me $120/year to rent the bottle and 30 something to refill it.

Cheers
DrSmurto


Well $10 a month is worth it to avoid cleaning all those bottles, What ever happen to "The Scouts "Bob a Job" Days"

Cheers
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby drsmurto » Friday Aug 15, 2008 1:40 pm

Force carb and you can be drinking the next keg in 15 mins. Its what i do. Its just not an easy thing to do reliably. My beer tends to be undercarbed a bit and gets up to the desired level (pouring pressure - 8-9psi) in a few days.
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Tipsy » Friday Aug 15, 2008 3:31 pm

Longwood-65 wrote:6. I live in VIC what sort of costs will CO2 cost.


The keg on legs option is a good one if you can afford the money up front

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... ts_id=8288
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Saturday Aug 16, 2008 7:09 am

Tipsy wrote:
Longwood-65 wrote:6. I live in VIC what sort of costs will CO2 cost.


The keg on legs option is a good one if you can afford the money up front

http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/product ... ts_id=8288


I did look at that, but I'm fairly time poor, The vet 16k's away is a BOC agent (and she only lives across the road), so I can organize bottle swaps from there, that beats a trip to the big smoke to swap with the Keg on legs option. Having done a fair bit of reading, It appears that a bottle will last about a year or more. I probably would do the Kegs on Legs if I could swap/get filled in Shepparton or Benella (or closer ) and hope it doesn't empty during the local footy season.

Thank you for the suggestion.
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Biernut » Saturday Aug 16, 2008 8:37 am

It is costing me around five dollars a week for gas and bottle hire from BOC. A 10Kg nett bottle lasts me around four months. For a 10Kg bottle to last a year you would have to be one hell of a light drinker. I turn my bottle off when I am not using a keg and yes I check fairly regularly for leaks.
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Saturday Aug 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Biernut wrote:It is costing me around five dollars a week for gas and bottle hire from BOC. A 10Kg nett bottle lasts me around four months. For a 10Kg bottle to last a year you would have to be one hell of a light drinker. I turn my bottle off when I am not using a keg and yes I check fairly regularly for leaks.


That surprises me, after reading this thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7769

Well I guestimate that the Missus and I will go through about a keg a week. 19l is approx 48 stubbies.

The keg system wasn't in the Post Agency today :cry: so I'll have to wait til next Saturday. ( I don't get mail delivery and can only make to the agency on saturdays)

Was just thinking, When the keg is empty of beer it would be full of CO2 I wonder if there is a cost effective way to recover it,
or maybe a hose with a connect each end, connect to the fluid side on a freshly filled keg then connect to the gas side of the newly emptied keg, should get enough CO2 to at least purge the new keg of air, won't be enough to carbonate but it would be better way of storing it for it's time connected up. (If someone tries it disconnect the fluid side before disconnecting from the Gas side)

Regards
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Chris » Monday Aug 18, 2008 7:59 am

That's a few cents of gas. Is 10mins of your time- and probable O2 contamination (possibly leading to an oxidised beer) worth a few cents?
A beer in the hand is worth two in George Bush...

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Re: I lashed out

Postby Biernut » Tuesday Aug 19, 2008 7:20 am

Longwood-65 wrote:
Biernut wrote:It is costing me around five dollars a week for gas and bottle hire from BOC. A 10Kg nett bottle lasts me around four months. For a 10Kg bottle to last a year you would have to be one hell of a light drinker. I turn my bottle off when I am not using a keg and yes I check fairly regularly for leaks.


That surprises me, after reading this thread http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... =17&t=7769

Well I guestimate that the Missus and I will go through about a keg a week. 19l is approx 48 stubbies.

The keg system wasn't in the Post Agency today :cry: so I'll have to wait til next Saturday. ( I don't get mail delivery and can only make to the agency on saturdays)

Was just thinking, When the keg is empty of beer it would be full of CO2 I wonder if there is a cost effective way to recover it,
or maybe a hose with a connect each end, connect to the fluid side on a freshly filled keg then connect to the gas side of the newly emptied keg, should get enough CO2 to at least purge the new keg of air, won't be enough to carbonate but it would be better way of storing it for it's time connected up. (If someone tries it disconnect the fluid side before disconnecting from the Gas side)

Regards
Ron


I didn't mention as T/L did in another post on leaking kegs that I also use CO2 to filter my beer from the racking keg to the serving keg. Hope this helps understanding where the gas can go.
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Tuesday Aug 26, 2008 8:39 am

Well Kegs, Lines tap and fittings arrived Saturday, because of my Football commitments with the local club I had to wait to assemble on Sunday.

Drilling the hole in the Fridge was no biggy, 2 kegs fit in the fridge nicely with a little modification and some fibreglass I could fit a third, ( Motor hump and and door shelves). I decided not to put the drip hose in, as it would be open to the air and reduce the efficency of the fidge.

Was disappointed in the Tap supplied, but the Birthday is coming up and christmas isn't really that far away. tomorrow I'll head off to BOC to get a gas bottle, I'll drill the hole for the line and get it mounted Saturday Morning. The trial brew will be ready then to transfer.
I have footy both days this weekend ( reserves on Saturday, Seniors on Sunday ) bit of a bummer that but that will give plenty of time for the brew to cool and gas up.

The brew is a simple k&K cheap and quick to mix up.
2 Litres water and a kilo of brewing sugar on the boil for 3 minutes or until the water is nice a clear again and mixture is just about ready to froth turn down heat to brisk simmer temp add 250 grams dry light malt mixed well for another minute or 2 turn heat off, add 10 grams hops ( galena this time), add Kit (warmed coopers real ale, I usually use coopers draught) 1/2 cup boiling water to rinse out the can then stir well for another 3 minutes to make sure the ingredients are well combined and to cool the wort a little, then into the fermenter of cooled water ( 4c) which usually brings the temp back up to about 16c stir well then pitch yeast.
A nice clear slightly bitter beer with not much stuffing about.
I suspect this one to be slightly more bitter because using real ale.
Cheers
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Sunday Aug 31, 2008 10:02 am

Finished everything Yesterday Filled and forced Carb the Keg 30/8

Tried the first beer this morning, It's quite cloudy and doesn't taste as nice as the similar brews that have been bottled, I guessing/hoping this is an age thing future kegs will be bulk primed and left to age as we get through the bottles.

The force carb method I used, FIlled the Keg and burped the air out, Chilled the beer to serving temp ( Actually quite bit colder still need to get the temp on the fridge right), Gunned the the pressure right up, turn off the gas at the bottle and backed off the reg all the way, Let it sit till this morning turned the gas on eased the reg to pouring pressure, and poured a beer. Nice head, bubbles still coming out of the beer 20 minutes later ( only fine little bubbles) still mantaining a 5mm head on the beer. Beer still taste alright just a little green.

Will see over the next week if the beer clears a bit.

regards,
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby drsmurto » Monday Sep 01, 2008 12:49 pm

Cloudy? Did you rack and cc it before putting it into the keg?

If you brewed this a week or 2 ago no wonder its green. Jaysus!

If you decide to bulk prime your keg and ignore the advice you asked for and received then be prepared for cloudier beer than you have on tap now. It takes time for yeast to floc out whether its in a keg or a bottle (and thats assuming you are running your keg fridge at the typical Aussie beer temp of <4C, longer the higher the temp)

Any slight movement of your keg will shake all that yeast up. Remember than the dip tube is a few mm from the bottom of your keg.... So if you bulk prime you will have a lot of yeast at the bottom......

I cc all my beers for a minimum of 2 weeks (at 0-1C) prior to going into the keg and i still have a layer of yeast at the bottom after i finish the keg.

the simplest method is to hook up your beer at the pressure you plan to serve at and wait 1-2 weeks before drinking.

EDIT - picked up 2 more kegs during the week so now have 8 8)
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Monday Sep 01, 2008 8:47 pm

drsmurto wrote:Cloudy? Did you rack and cc it before putting it into the keg?

No I didn't, haven't with any other brews either. Beers are usually quite clear coming out of both the 6ltr PET Tap-a-Draft bottles and Stubbies without doing the racking and cc'ing

drsmurto wrote:If you brewed this a week or 2 ago no wonder its green. Jaysus! )

Well, New toy just had too, I was thinking today now that I have used it I might switch the fridge off and give it a couple of more weeks, Still got stock to drink.

drsmurto wrote:If you decide to bulk prime your keg and ignore the advice you asked for and received then be prepared for cloudier beer than you have on tap now. It takes time for yeast to floc out whether its in a keg or a bottle (and thats assuming you are running your keg fridge at the typical Aussie beer temp of <4C, longer the higher the temp)

I absorbed the advice and very grateful for it, as yet I have not bulked primed any beers, just a measured amount of sugar in the individual bottles. I see no harm in trying numerous ways it's not as if I'm resistant to change.

drsmurto wrote:Any slight movement of your keg will shake all that yeast up. Remember than the dip tube is a few mm from the bottom of your keg.... So if you bulk prime you will have a lot of yeast at the bottom......

I cc all my beers for a minimum of 2 weeks (at 0-1C) prior to going into the keg and i still have a layer of yeast at the bottom after i finish the keg.

Well hopefully the settled layer of yeast is quite thin as with the 6ltr TAD bottles and doesn't reach the dip tube. Doing K&K's and not ag's should have a lower sediment levels and I'm pretty good at transferring from fermenter to bottle with very little sediment so hopefully the transfer to keg will be as efficient.

drsmurto wrote:the simplest method is to hook up your beer at the pressure you plan to serve at and wait 1-2 weeks before drinking.

:) Did I mention that I estimate that the missus and I will go through a keg in a week and that the Fridge only at this stage holds 2.

Again thank you to all for replies, answers and advice
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby drsmurto » Tuesday Sep 02, 2008 10:37 am

Not sure why i bother at times.......

Open your keg and have a good hard look at it. Notice how close the dip tube gets to the bottom of the keg?

IF you bulk prime, you WILL get a nice layer of yeast at the bottom that IF moved even slightly will result in cloudy beers.

Some people have taken to cutting 10mm off the end of the dip tube to get around this but you then waste beer which is heresy IMO.

K&K, partials, AGs, cider, ginger beer. Makes no bloody difference to to amount of yeast!!!!!!

Ok, so you will be drinking your beer a lot faster than me (and you are lucky enough to have a missus who drinks your beer - or unlucky, depends on how you look at it). The time it will take for you keg to naturally carb up if you bulk prime it will be the same, if not slightly longer, than if you leave it for 1-2 weeks at pouring pressure.

And just for the record Ron, here's my method.

I force carb. Make sure the beer is at the temp you want to drink it. Attach gas line to gas in post. (this is where i vary from the Ross method - i believe that method involves attaching the gas line to the beer out post so the CO2 is bubbled directly thru the beer while the keg is on its side). Wind gas up to 350kPa (50 psi) and rock the keg for 60 s. Turn the gas off at the bottle and continue to shake watching the dial on the reg. If it drops below your pouring pressure you are undercarbed. Its trial and error but doing this i can be drinking the beer 15 mins after i keg it.

Now i have been doing it for a while its easier but i have also bought more kegs along the way (8 now) so that i can keg beer, let it condition after burping the keg so that i am drinking beer when its ready, not before.

The key for me now is to make sure i have enough beer on hand so that each batch gets a min 2 weeks in primary, a bare minimum of 2 weeks in secondary for ales, >6 weeks for lagers. Its taken me a year to get to this stage!

i know this is all new to you and i did tell myself i wouldn't reply until after my 2nd coffee so i hope this doesn't come across as brutal as my posts in the last few weeks have been...... :roll:
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Longwood-65 » Tuesday Sep 02, 2008 8:38 pm

Hi Drsmurto,

I'm glad you do bother and I don't find your comments brutal at all, I find them Informative and only have respect for your opinions and dedication to brewing quality clear beers.

I presently have about 60ltr's in stock so have turned off the keg fridge to allow the beer in the keg to mature for a couple of more weeks,it may or may not clear up some doesn't really matter because it has an acceptable taste.

I have 4 kegs and will build on that and also have 6 x 6ltr PET bottles so basically a single brew will fill a keg and 1 6ltr bottle.

I hope to get to the stage where I will have time, space and money to do quality clear beers, but for now I have to settle for cheap quick acceptable drinking beers.
Time and space are major obstacles ( 60hrs/week work, 20hrs community and sport involvment/week, time with the missus)

Thank you,
Ron
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Re: I lashed out

Postby drsmurto » Wednesday Sep 03, 2008 10:17 am

60 hours/week :shock:

Us public servants would drop dead if we had to do that many hours :lol:

No worries Ron, one of the key things i have learnt in the past coupe of years (since joining this and other forums) is patience is the key. The old RDWHAHB sums this up beautifully.
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Re: I lashed out

Postby Chris » Wednesday Sep 03, 2008 8:00 pm

Ol' Charlie would be proud of you Doc.
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