Gas Fired 70l S/s Pot Or Electric Urn

[aydanrogers]

I am really undecided on how I would like to progress into AG brewing as I don't want to go down an avenue and find out that I am going to need more parts or things are going to become obsolete to me in the future. I have decided for now that I would like to get into it via BIAB as it seems to be far cheaper to start out with just the one vessel and build from there. Now before everyone tells me to search this subject, I have already and there is so much information on multiple sites that the information just starts to get a bit conflicting and I end up in the same place as I was when I started, very confused and over-whelmed.

I have a few questions that I would really like answered and this should really help with making my decision all that easier.

1. How much does gas cost to run? how long will a 9kg bottle last me for if I was to be only mashing for a 23L batch into the fermenter? This includes heating the mash water, doing mashout and mostly 60 min boils?

2. There are so many threads on the benefits of exposed elements for having a far better boil and that the concealed element in the crown urn isn't up to the task of boiling full volume but how bad is the concealed urn really for its boil. I don't want to modify the urn if I was to purchase the concealed element urn as I believe that the protection is there for a reason. If I was to go down the electrical side then I would be boiling indoors and I would most likely lag the urn. I have been told that the concealed element will sufficiently boil a wort under 1.060 but struggles with anything over 1.060. Not saying that it is a problem for me now but could limit me in the future when I decide that I want to make stronger beers down the track. Does anyone have much experience with the concealed or exposed elements with batches that are over that 1.060 reading? Does the wort really burn on the exposed element versions that bad that it changes the colour of the beer or 'caramelise' it? Also how often does the wort burn on the concealed versions and is there easy ways around cleaning it with the wort still in the urn during the boil so that it doesn't continually cut the element out?

3. How much electricity do the urns use? Is it comparable to gas?

4. How fast does it really take to boil 30L in a 70L pot using either a 3 ring burner (31.5mj burner) in comparison to an exposed or concealed element, is it that different?

Just a little info on my part to make it easier to understand where I am at. I am only new to brewing and I really like the idea of making better tasting beer and being able to completely customise it to suit my needs, this is why I want to start doing AG for myself. I like to challenge myself and I feel that going into AG brewing is going provide that challenge that I need. I don't have any plans on making larger batches as of yet (still happy to continue making 23L batches) but I would like to get into Kegging in the future so I probably still wont have any need to make any larger batches. I don't want to spend a fortune on a set-up as the more that I get into home brewing, the more that it is costing me to get set up for it. I know it all pays for itself in the end but I just want to go with the cheapest but most efficient method to get my foot in the door for starters.

I will be posting this on a few different forums just to see if there are different views on them all.

Thanks in advance

Regards
Aydan

[Bum]

Hey, Aydan.

Good questions and it is also good of you to explain your needs to give the questions some context.

I can't help with specifics as my set-up isn't exactly what you're aiming at (either way) but I can tell you that pretty much everyone reports electricity being cheaper than gas in terms of per-batch running costs. However, a burner should last you forever if looked after, a gas bottle (not the gas), lasts 10 years (innit?) and a kettle can be had fairly cheaply and will last forever. I wonder what the average longevity is for the electric urns - boiling the guts out of wort for 1hr or more isn't what they're designed for (even though I do accept they do a good job).

There you go, some more confusion provided by someone trying to help.

At the end of the day, both systems will work well for you. When setting up my system I decided it was better to look at it in terms of which set-up best reflected how I wanted to brew rather than looking at it in terms of which would be a few cents cheaper than the other per batch. You probably already have an idea of which you like the sound of better - you don't want to choose the other for some reason that might end up being less important than actually enjoying using the gear.

[rotten]

The electric urn will certainly get you started, I would go the concealed element personally, it's how I started and it still works fine. The only problem for me was the time it took to heat strike water, sparge, and mash out. I now use it for strike and mash out only, I normally mill my grain bill and get ready while waiting for strike water which takes about an hr depending on batch size. Today for instance it took 70 mins to get 16 ltrs to 75c for a light double batch. Then I crank up the gas for the initial sparge water, and have the urn starting at the same time to get the mash out up to temp so I don't lose time between steps. When I didn't have gas I had to wait 45 mins at least for mash out, If I waited that long, on top of the time I had already waited for strike or sparge water. PITA. I did add a craftbrewer element to my urn, and then blew it up when I tried to insulate the urn to make it heat even quicker. Don't insulate around the extra element

I like my urn for strike water as it's really accurate, although if I could I'd go gas all the way. Gas FTW.

I get 9 kg gas bottle for about 30 bucks I think. I would get about 10 brews ish and countless BBQ's out of it, so about 3 bucks a brew. Power costs, not sure, except that my power bill has doubled over the lasr few years.

You can read all you like which is great, but at the end of the day it's whatever you are prepared to pay for and what suits your needs, time constraints, space restrictions, brew requirements etc.
Cheers

[squirt in the turns]

I agree with Rotten that the urn is the way to when starting out. You’ll most likely need a new regulator for your gas bottle, as well as the burner, a sturdy stand for it, and get a ball valve welded to the kettle, etc. Also, if you “upgrade” from electric BIAB to 3V with gas, the urn will be your HLT, and still an integral part of the brewery.

I use the exposed element Crown urn and have never had any problems with it. I have made very light pilsners in it and have not had any caramelisation or burning issues. Cleaning is easy: chuck in PBW and water and crank the heat up. A bit of scrubbing is sometimes required, but after a few dozen brews, there’s still no significant build-up of beer stone (I believe some is inevitable regardless of the type of kettle/heat source used). I went for the exposed version after reading of others’ woes with the concealed one, and I don’t regret it. It was cheaper, too!

I lag the urn with a thick camping mat. Rotten’s concealed version sounds like it takes a bit longer than mine, I don’t usually time it very accurately but I would say that in 70 mins I could heat all water for a single batch (~30 L) to 75c. Might also have something to do with tap water temperature in Vic compared to QLD.

I probably would have gone BIAB if I’d had a means of suspending the bag. As it is, I usually heat all my water (advantage of electric is that you can set a timer to have your strike water ready when you wake up/get home, whatever), mash in with the required volume (in an Esky), keeping the remainder hot in the urn for sparging. I don’t usually bother with a mash out, so at the end of the mash, I’ll run the rest to a fermenter, drain the mash to the urn, then sparge with the reserved water. That way I can crank the urn up as soon as the element’s covered with the first runnings.

[aydanrogers]

So it seems that the exposed element is winning so far, I don't mind a bit of cleaning that's no dramas, it cant really take that long to clean anyway. Have you tried boiling higher gravity worts in your urn? does it achieve a decent boil? Have you had any dramas with either the concealed element or the exposed cutting out while boiling?

[squirt in the turns]

According to my notes, I've boiled a 1.067 wort (pre-boil was 1.057). The boil-dry protection has never kicked in when it shouldn't have, and it's never had trouble maintaining a good rolling boil. The largest batch I've made is about 25 litres, so can't attest to its performance at volumes above that.

[SimonG]

Hi Aydan,

I bought a 50L stainless steel pot from Handy Imports (there have been a few threads lately about people having troubles with Handy Imports pots but I'm happy with the quality of mine. I got the holes for my tap and electric elements drilled by a local engineering company that does stainless steel work and they actually commented that it was a nice pot, so it can't be too bad!). I bought 2 x 2200W stainless electric elements (Keg King??? I think. There have also been a few reports of people having trouble with them too. I had to return one to my LHBS because it was shorting but the replacement one is working ok so far). It cost me about $300 all up so similar cost to a 40L urn but with a lot more heating power.

I can heat 39L of water (for a 29L batch) to 75C in about 25mins using the 2 elements. I plug the elements into power points at 2 ends of the house (different circuits) so that I don't trip the circuit breaker by drawing a large current from a single circuit. It takes another 25mins to come to the boil after the mash (around 64-66C). It gives me a very strong boil, so I switch one off to maintain a steady boil. Obviously this would be quicker if you are heating for a smaller batch.

I'm very happy with my new set up so far.

Cheers
Simon

[aydanrogers]

I only have one circuit for my power point in my house so that wouldn't work for me. Good idea though!

[emnpaul]

You could go with a pretty big pot, as in oversize for your stove, and use an over the side electric element as well.