Infection ??

[CrookedFingers]

Hey fellas !
A bit of advice needed.

I helped a mate bottle his first brew today and I was a little concerned about the look, taste and smell of it !
I dont know full details of ingredients but his description of them was a coopers lager kit and 500g of light DME, I suppose kit yeast. Nothing special.
I asked him last week how his brew was going and his reply was " I dunno man, its been sitting there for a few weeks and I think its knackered".
He had it sitting in a garage, covered with a blanket, so temps were melbourne outside temps for the last few weeks ! A bit up and down. But as it was a lager kit I told him it may still be salvageable.
We bottled it.

Now for the smell and taste...
It smelled sharp and chemically, not like sulphur or egg as I have heard can be the case.
Upon tasting, sour and sugary sweet at the same time, kind of like raw sugar cane.
The brew kind of seemed carbed a little, as we stirred in the sugar solution for carbonation it kind of headed up a bit.

He is planning on storing the bottles for at least a month before sampling.

I have never made a lager kit or luckily so far never had an infection, so I had no advice for him, thats why I am asking you blokes !
I have a photo I could post, but not sure how ! Not great on the old computers this one here !

Looking forward to your replies !

CF

[weizgei]

Problem is mate that it's not really a Lager kit...the Coopers Lager tin comes with an Ale yeast IIRC...so it's a 'faux lager'. Did you take an FG before bottling? Sounds like the low temps may not have given the yeast a chance to do its biz.

Sharp & chemically is a worry, but if it didn't taste disgusting it's unlikely to be an infection. I'd advise him to keep the bottles somewhere safe though, 'coz if it is infected then they may well burst. Did you bottle in glass?

[CrookedFingers]

Yeah I told him the yeast was a kind of blend to suit most brews, or so I have been led to believe. So as not a true lager yeast we don't know what will happen.
He didn't take a OG, and I am not entirely sure how thorough his sanitation regime was.

Yep, it wasn't disgusting or off tasting, but odd, I don't know much about diacetyl, but maybe it was that ?

And yes, bottled in glass !! hahaha !
I did tell him to cover them with a blanket to be sure.

[Oliver]

Hi CF,

I am going to go with weizgei here and suggest that fermentation was not complete when you bottled.

WG is correct when he says that Coopers "Lager" comes with an ale yeast, so it's highly unlikely that the ambient temperatures have been high enough for fermentation to finish. (When I have got up at 6am to walk the dog over the past few weeks it's rarely been above 10C, which is way below what's required for an ale yeast to do its thing. A blanket would have retained some heat created by fermentation, but still ...)

So, no gravity readings were taken I gather?

I reckon you could put the taste down to the fact that fermentation hasn't completed and that the temperatures during what fermentation did take place happened at inconsistent temperatures.

Perhaps there is an infection, but there are a whole lot of other variables I'd be concerned about, too.

Why did your mate think it was "knackered"?

That's probably not what you wanted to hear though. Sorry.

Any other thoughts guys?

Oliver

[CrookedFingers]

Hey Oliver,
I wasn't present when he put the brew down, he didn't take any gravity readings.
Makes it hard to help hey !
I can say that I did a gravity reading before bottling, it was 1.014.
I'm not sure where it was supposed to finish because I could get an accurate quantity of fermentables out of him ! Ha.
He thought it was no good because he had let it sit for so long, from what I have heard of lagers three weeks to a month is ok. Having said that, I don't know what yeast he used, if it was the kit yeast well, it's not a true lager yeast anyway !
Given that it only tasted sweet and sour, you may be right with the unfinished fermentation. It wansnt disgusting, but just not right !
The real concern for me was when I went to his hose to bottle it, the FV was right next to a window in the garage and uncovered, I I though may e it could be light struck. He told me it was only uncovered for a day or two. Would that be enough time for light to affect it ?
Thanks for the replies and food for thought, I will let him know !


....and no, my friend is not me ! I don't love lagers enough to brew them. I am an ale man !

[Oliver]

Hi CF,

It actually hadn't occurred to me that your "friend" might be you

With 1.7kg of concentrate and 500g of LDME, as per your original post, in 23 litres you would be looking at a FG of around 1.008, according to a dodgy online calculator I found (I don't have BeerSmith handy). But it sounds like he's not really sure what went into it!

So beware bottle bombs.

I wouldn't have thought the problem would be with the light.

Cheers,

Oliver

[CrookedFingers]

Ah, thanks Oliver.
Well we went with 195g of sugar for an approx 24/25L batch. Which I don't think is excessive.
Hope that doesn't make for bombs !
I will let him know he might get an "earth shattering kaboom", to quote old Marvin !

I have had a brew not fully ferment out, just left it under the stairs in the garage for a few months.
Tasted ok, probably not at its best but ah well !

[weizgei]

The bombs won't be caused by your priming sugar...they might be caused by the beer not having finished the ferment. 1014 is not too bad for an FG, but if as Oliver said it should have gotten down to 1008, then that means there's still a lot of sugar in the beer that hasn't fermented out yet. Then you've added more sugar for priming.

If he now sits the stubbies somewhere warm, the yeast may well wake up and start eating the unfermented sugars that were present before you bottled, as well as the sugar you added...and KABLOWIE could be the result! Ahhh...i've always wanted to use KABLOWIE in a post...bucket list check!

[emnpaul]

I'm concerned for your mate's safety. He should be very careful when he goes anywhere near the bottles. 1014 is a tad high for the Cooper's yeast. If it is infected it may well be crawling it's way to a finish well below what you'd get with the Cooper's yeast. Trust me on that, I've a fair bit of recent experience with infections.

This is perhaps a bit alarmist, but bottling an unfinished brew can be quite dangerous. I've actually seen pictures of the top of a longneck bottle embedded about 50mm into the plastic inner lining of a fridge. If it were me I'd just tip it to be safe and then ply my good mate CrookedFingers with some Coopers Sparkling as a consult fee and get him to help me put down a decent brew.

[CrookedFingers]

Haha !
Thanks boys,
I wish he got me beers...but I do love to lend a hand.
I'm with you on the sugar issue Weizgei, I was initially worried the bulk priming would just be adding more sugar to the unfermented stuff in there.
I have told him to keep them in the garage, covered, at ferment temps or below....(ambient melb temps). So at the moment, cold. Good.

I have also seen possibly the same photo you have emnpaul, pretty serious !

I will be helping him put down another brew this week, might get him going on a nice easy pale ale brew.
Introduce him to taking care and sterilising his gear, and taking notes while brewing !

Thanks so much for all your replies fellas.

[Oliver]

... and using a lager yeast, perhaps, given the ambient temperatures!

Oliver

[CrookedFingers]

A lager yeast in an ale because of temps !?!?!
Have you done that !?? My world is about to be tipped upside down !! hahahaa !
I have never heard of that.
I am not doubting you for one second Oliver, I am sure your experience far outweighs mine.

I told him just to keep it in the house somewhere !!

[Oliver]

Your approach would be far preferable. Brewing with an ale yeast at the correct temperature would be best. I had just assumed that it would be done in the shed again, with low temps.

There's really no reason you can't brew an ale with a lager yeast, it's just that the result will, if fermented at the correct temperature, be cleaner and a bit drier than then same beer brewed with an ale yeast at ale temps.

If his house is on the cool side get him to wrap a few blankets around the fermenter, which will keep in some of the heat from fermentation and keep the temperature up a few degrees.

Cheers,

Oliver

[CrookedFingers]

That's fantastic !
He is kind of into megaswill, so a dryer cleaner beer will be right up his alley.
He got into home brewing because of the money he could save instead of buying.
Just a matter of time until he is craving jugs of 7% 65IBU IPA's !! Haha.

I think I will set him up with a toucan coopers Canadian blonde. US05 and an aroma hop, something subtle, any suggestions ?

[CrookedFingers]

To be honest, he might just be happy with just the hops on the kit cans.

[Planner]

A lager yeast in an ale because of temps !?!?!
Have you done that !?? My world is about to be tipped upside down !! hahahaa !
I have never heard of that.

I'm experimenting with lager yeast in ales because of temps at present.
Just starting to drink a batch now, ale recipe with S-23 @ 12deg.
Still a bit green (4 weeks in bottle) but showing a bit of promise.

Will test another bottle tonight, and if it tastes OK Oliver may well receive a bottle for the past lotto win.

Planner