hop bitterness

[barrelboy]

There is always a lot of reference to "hop bitterness" but in the written form can any body describe this? What I mean is, hop bitterness or "off" brew? (Is one mans bitter another mans sour?). interesting I think.
Cheers BB

[Tipsy]

It is probably hard to pick in a well balanced beer but when you over hop a beer it tastes, well really bitter.

Not sour at all

[barrelboy]

Understand what your saying Tipsy, I guess I'm raising the issue on two points - some people say lemons are bitter, some say sour. Some will taste a beer that's meant to bitter and say " nice bitter taste" some will say "ah that's sour". At the end of the day with your own beers its how you find them yourself
. I Just think peoples perception of a beer can be interesting.
Cheers BB

[bullfrog]

I suppose one could pick up bitterness in a lemon due to the acids and oils, but 'sour' as a tasting note for beer would tend to denote poor yeast management, poor temperature control or a mild infection. I do agree that everybody has different perceptions when it comes to taste, but bitterness and sourness are two entirely different things.

[warra48]

Beers generally need the bitterness of hops to counteract and balance the natural sweetness of malt. Without bitterness, beers would be sickly sweet on the whole. Without the sweetness, or maltiness, beers would be too bitter from hops to be an attractive drink.
Hops are bitter, but not sour.
Lemons are sour because of their acidic nature, but not bitter.
Sour can be defined as: 1. having an acid taste, resembling that of vinegar, lemon juice, etc.; tart.
2. producing the one of the four basic taste sensations that is not bitter, salt, or sweet.
Bitter can be defined as: 1. having a harsh, disagreeably acrid taste, like that of aspirin, quinine, wormwood, or aloes.
2. producing one of the four basic taste sensations; not sour, sweet, or salt.
The two are not the same.

[barrelboy]

Very valid points guys but just to add a spanner to the works the Australian Collins dictionary has "sour" as one of its definitions for bitter and the Readers Digest Reverse Dictionary has " bitter to the taste" as a definition for sour! So still raises perception? As I stated I've raised this for interest and not trying to be difficult or anything.
Cheers BB

[Oliver]

Interesting question. In my experience some beers that are aiming for high bitterness actually end up being more astringent than bitter. There is almost a bit of a sourness to them.

I've had some extremely bitter beers that are still pleasantly and cleanly bitter, whereas some other beers have a very harsh, astringent bitterness about them. In the latter category I'd put a Two Metre Tall pale ale that I had the other day. It just wasn't a pleasant beer because of the astringency.

I'd be interested to hear from others what contributes to this difference. One theory that I've discussed with other brewers and drinkers before is that using large quantities of high-bitterness hops such as Pride of Ringwood can lead to this harsh bitterness.

On the other hand, I've had beers bittered with only PoR and they have been fine, so perhaps it's something about how the hops are added?

Oliver

[emnpaul]

One theory that I've discussed with other brewers and drinkers before is that using large quantities of high-bitterness hops such as Pride of Ringwood can lead to this harsh bitterness.

On the other hand, I've had beers bittered with only PoR and they have been fine, so perhaps it's something about how the hops are added?

Oliver

I've often wondered about that too!

I was reading a few hop growers/suppliers websites last night and came across a few comments regarding low cohumulone and low cohumulone/AA ratio "giving a smooth bitterness". These were for high AA% hop varieties too being well over 10%. I haven't personally tried any of these varieties yet but am interested in what others have experienced.

Link: http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Warrior_Hops

Edit: Also there is some conventional wisdom going around regarding instant coffee, that states, if you put the milk in first you avoid scalding the coffee granules and the resultant coffee flavoured beverage is less bitter. Can't say that I can tell the difference. What I'm thinking is has anyone tried adding bittering hops pre-boil and bringing them up to the boil slowly, with the post mash wort and did it have a perceptible effect on the bitterness?

Cheers
Paul

[bullfrog]

Google "mash hopping" and "first wort hopping." Both tried-and-tested methods of essentially doing what you're talking about, Paul.

[emnpaul]

Thanks for the heads up Bullfrog. Yeah, I checked out first wort hopping. Intriguing! It answers my question regarding pre-boil hopping. I may even give it a go.

Still curious regarding the effects of cohumulone though. Is it just advertising spin?

Back to Google for me.

Cheers
Paul