Recirculating ice water through plate-chiller

[squirt in the turns]

I'm thinking about going over to the dark side, and chilling my AG batches. No-chill has served me well, but I'd like to see what difference chilling makes. I may still no-chill, but would like the option to chill, if the solution I'm thinking of is indeed viable.

I won't ever be running a chiller with mains water. I have access to rain water that I already brew with. I cannot, however, connect a chiller directly to a rainwater tap. I live in a block of units, and the taps are outside in communal areas that are too far away from where I set my rig up. My idea is to fill a laudry tub with rainwater, salt and ice, and recirculate the cold water through the plate chiller using a 12V 1100 GHP bilge pump (4M max. head). I have one already for my brew box, which works perfectly for pumping liquid about 1M vertically, through narrow tubing and a heat exchanger, so I have no reason to think that it'd struggle with a plate chiller.

Has anyone tried something similar? I'm hoping that with ice water, one pass would be sufficient for a batch of 19-23L. If not, I guess I could do another pass with a fresh batch of water.

[Gill]

I'm no expert but..
Using this calculator: http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm
And 3 fields

I guessed 5000g (5kg) ice @0C, 40000g (40L) water @0C, and 20000g (20L) water (wort) @90C
This would give a temp balance of 25.5C
Though the more water and ice the better.

Obviously this calculator is for mixing the water, where you are only passing it through, but the temperature balance should be similar. The problem being towards the end when the temperatures get close the cooling rate will drop dramatically, so you may get it only to 30C in a reasonable time. Adding more ice as you go would solve that.
Note you would also have heat loss to the atmosphere in your side.

But I have been doing no chill, so these calculations are a guess as to how I would work it out

[drsmurto]

It would be cheaper and far less effort to buy 2 long hoses.

One to connect the rainwater directly to your chiller, the other to divert it back into the tank via the nearest downpipe that runs water back to your tank.

No point trying to reinvent the wheel

[squirt in the turns]

For your input, Gill. I've used that calculator for mixing mini-boils with chilled cubes of wort to get correct pitching temps, and it's pretty accurate. As you say, though, when trying to exchange heat instead of mixing, it might be off.

DrS, a long hose would do the job (neighbours might wonder what I was doing running rainwater into my unit). However, I don't think I'd be able to return water to the tank. I don't even know where on the property the tank is, and being on the ground floor, it'd be difficult to run the output hose to a gutter/downpipe that would lead to the tank. I'd probably run it to the pool, but that's often overflowing anyway.

To chill wort to lager pitching temperatures, surely you would have to resort to recirculating ice water once the wort was close to the coolant temperature anyway, right?

Those bilge pumps are only $20, and I have a spare anyway. Making heaps of ice and carrying water from the tap to the reservoir would be a pain, but one that I'd be prepared to deal with.

I'm starting to lean more towards an immersion chiller than a plate chiller, too, probably being cheaper to make, and having other advantages such as leaving more break in the kettle. The option to add a march pump later to make a whirlpool chiller is also attractive, although I guess I could stand there and stir it with a spoon to get the same effect.

[drsmurto]

Living in the chilly Adelaide hills my tank water is nice and cold.

Single pass at full throttle and i am below 20C using a plate chiller in the middle of winter, 2 nights ago i got 22C which is fine for pitching yeast.

[emnpaul]

Dr, do you pitch lagers at 22?

Zainasheff and Palmer reccomend pitching at ferment temp and then slowly creeping the temp up during fermentation. Just wondering what you think of that and if it's worth the effort and risk of infection to stick a partially chilled wort in the fridge overnight to get down to 10* for pitching?

Cheers

[warra48]

Dr, do you pitch lagers at 22?

Zainasheff and Palmer reccomend pitching at ferment temp and then slowly creeping the temp up during fermentation. Just wondering what you think of that and if it's worth the effort and risk of infection to stick a partially chilled wort in the fridge overnight to get down to 10* for pitching?

Cheers

Well, for every lager I've brewed since going AG and installing a TempMate on my fridge, I've stuck the fermenter in the fridge after chilling and draining from the kettle, and waited for it to drop to around 9 to 10ºC before aerating and pitching my yeast. Usually that's by later the day I brew, or the first thing the next morning. Note again, I don't aerate until I'm ready to pitch my yeast.
This method has not caused me any problems.
I believe in pitching lagers cold and with plenty of yeast. I think it obviates the need for a diacetyl rest in most instances.

I understand DrS also pitches cold, but he will himself be able to confirm or deny that.

[drsmurto]

In the middle of winter i can throttle the flow from the kettle through the plate chiller to get the wort down to 10-12C so yes, pitch cold (for lagers only).

In summer i pitch warm and do a diacetyl rest.

[emnpaul]

Well, for every lager I've brewed since going AG and installing a TempMate on my fridge, I've stuck the fermenter in the fridge after chilling and draining from the kettle, and waited for it to drop to around 9 to 10ºC before aerating and pitching my yeast. Usually that's by later the day I brew, or the first thing the next morning. Note again, I don't aerate until I'm ready to pitch my yeast.
This method has not caused me any problems.
I believe in pitching lagers cold and with plenty of yeast. I think it obviates the need for a diacetyl rest in most instances.

I understand DrS also pitches cold, but he will himself be able to confirm or deny that.

In the middle of winter i can throttle the flow from the kettle through the plate chiller to get the wort down to 10-12C so yes, pitch cold (for lagers only).

In summer i pitch warm and do a diacetyl rest.

Thanks for the relpies.

I am happy to hear you haven't had any infection problems from doing that Warra, as it has been a concern with no chilling so far, although I am yet to have one. I have been no chilling lagers overnight on the concrete floor of my laundry which gets me down around 18-20 degrees, sometimes colder. I had also contemplated then sticking it in the fridge to get down to 10-11 deg. prior to pitching but wasn't sure if it was worth the added risk of infection versus the need for diacetl rest. As I don't have a chiller (yet) I am fairly limited in my options but if the good doctor is happy with diacetl rests then pitching warm will do me for the time being.

[squirt in the turns]

In the middle of winter i can throttle the flow from the kettle through the plate chiller to get the wort down to 10-12C so yes, pitch cold (for lagers only).

In summer i pitch warm and do a diacetyl rest.

Of course - sorry DrS, I forgot that warm pitching lager yeast is an option

emnpaul, are you no-chilling in a sealed cube? If so, I don't see why you'd worry about infection. Taking as much time as you like to bring your wort to your desired pitching temp is one of the advantages of the method. Once it's at ambient temp, whack it in the fridge.

[emnpaul]

Sorry Squirt, I didn't mean to take over your thread. I was just asking about lager pitching temps for the sake of clarification.

In the middle of winter i can throttle the flow from the kettle through the plate chiller to get the wort down to 10-12C so yes, pitch cold (for lagers only)
In summer i pitch warm and do a diacetyl rest.

Of course - sorry DrS, I forgot that warm pitching lager yeast is an option

emnpaul, are you no-chilling in a sealed cube? If so, I don't see why you'd worry about infection. Taking as much time as you like to bring your wort to your desired pitching temp is one of the advantages of the method. Once it's at ambient temp, whack it in the fridge.

Ha ha ha! laughing at myself here. You could be forgiven for thinking so, but no! I am no chilling in a 19L stockpot with the lid sealed to the pot with masking tape and a band aid over the vent hole.

I have been trying to get a couple of cubes for a while but for the last couple of months had forgot they existed, which is the reason for my laughter. It would have made everything much simpler and rendered my fear of infection from delayed pitching null and void.

You see, I've got this mate. Top bloke, loves a chat, doesn't mind a beer, cooks a mean barbie...you get the idea. Also very forgetful! Anyway said mate works as a security guard, A.K.A. "stock protection officer" at a discount chemist where they run the methodone program. Besides catching shoplifters, which are often the methodone users themselves and making sure they actually swallow the tablets and don't spit them out to on-sell later, he dispenses cups of distilled water from these nice, 19L food grade plastic cubes for them to take their tablets with. For months he's been saying "Don't buy any cubes, I'll get some from work. We just chuck 'em out anyway!" To which I said "Awesome. Get us a couple. I'll pay ya!" He says "Nah don't worry, I'll give 'em to ya".

Six months later and still no cubes. Top bloke. Just very forgetful. I can't bring myself to fork out good coin for cubes or jerry cans at Rays Outdoors when I have even a slim chance of getting one for free. I mean lets face it, $22.95 for a plastic cube is a bit bloody much, even if Ray does need a new ivory back scratcher.