A short sumary of the larger fermenting technique please :)
That looks good lethal, just a couple of things though. I reckon the the wort needs to be boiled and cooled. The malt extract can easily harbour bacteria. We don't know how it's been handled when packaged, and how long it's been sitting around. May work OK until that one time. It doesn't take too long to get a small pot out, boil it up, sit in a sink with lid on for several minutes until cool. If you pick up an infection on the first one, all the rest will carry it too. And beware, yeast won't appreciate propogation in dex. There aren't the nutrients available to ensure healthy cell growth and they will be damaged.
Other than that, I'd say it's a pretty good proceedure for splitting the original starter up
Cheers, Ed
Other than that, I'd say it's a pretty good proceedure for splitting the original starter up
Cheers, Ed
So the bartender says to the horse "Why the long face?"
Ed wrote:When you bottle after lagering, let the beer warm up to room temp for a day first. The cold ferment and lagering means there is more CO2 in suspension than a hotter brewed beer. Warming it up first will drop some of that CO2 out. If this isn't done, you will get too high carbonation unless you compensate enough by adding less priming.
Cheers, Ed
My first brew in the beer fridge might be a tad fizzy.Thanks for the info Ed.
Yeah i can see your point Ed but in saying that i have done many just using boiled kettle water and all have been fine, maybe ive just been lucky and with the smaller starters i usually use malt but as far as i know any fermentable is ok and i have used dex twice i think when i had no malt on hand and they also turned out just fine, but like i said i can see how things could possibly go wrong but have heard of many people who use pretty much the same method that have also had no problems, i just stick to what works for me but if others want to ensure there safety by boiling then feel free
Just to add tipsy, as far as i was aware the CO2 levels that you should worry about would be at fermenting temps, not lagering, i have always bulk primed on that and never let my lagers sit out of the fridge for any more than 1/2 an hour before bottling, i always use a priming calculator and just enter the temp that the brew fermented at and have hit the carbonation target 100% of the time, once again it could just be blind luck but it works for me.Tipsy wrote:Ed wrote:When you bottle after lagering, let the beer warm up to room temp for a day first. The cold ferment and lagering means there is more CO2 in suspension than a hotter brewed beer. Warming it up first will drop some of that CO2 out. If this isn't done, you will get too high carbonation unless you compensate enough by adding less priming.
Cheers, Ed
Thanks for the info Ed.
As an example a lager fermented at 10*C will have 1.2 volumes of CO2 and as far as i have noticed this doesnt change over the lagering period so long as the brew is well and truely fermented out before lagering
Cheers
Leigh
Yeah I learn't that one the hard way Tipsy. First lager I ever did turned out way too fizzy and it's difficult to say just how much CO2 is being held in suspension. For example, if it's warmed up for the diacetyl rest before lagering you'd think that would drop most out. Well it didn't for me even though I worked out the priming based on the rest tempTipsy wrote:
Thanks for the info Ed.
Now I just let it warm after lagering because for me, it takes any guesswork or calculation out. I've since read that is what Palmer reckons to do as well.
Cheers, Ed
So the bartender says to the horse "Why the long face?"
Lethal, you may want to re-think using any simple sugar. It will look like the yeast are having a party but honestly, it's bad news for them. couldn't find the exact info I was after, but this little snippet from Palmer should confirm it.lethaldog wrote:Yeah i can see your point Ed but in saying that i have done many just using boiled kettle water and all have been fine, maybe ive just been lucky and with the smaller starters i usually use malt but as far as i know any fermentable is ok and i have used dex twice i think when i had no malt on hand and they also turned out just fine, but like i said i can see how things could possibly go wrong but have heard of many people who use pretty much the same method that have also had no problems, i just stick to what works for me but if others want to ensure there safety by boiling then feel free
Cheers, Ed
Yeast cannot live on sugar alone. Yeast also need nitrogen, and amino and fatty acids to enable them to live and grow. The primary source for these building blocks is the free amino nitrogen (FAN) and lipids from the malted barley. Refined sugars like table sugar, corn sugar or candy sugar do not contain any of these nutrients.
So the bartender says to the horse "Why the long face?"
Hi all,
I wrote to Wyeast and this is what they said about what I planned to do (see earlier in this thread):
"
OK, it sounds like you have planned this out well! If you want to
follow the protocol you described, I recommend making a starter. A one
liter starter is what I recommend. Doing this will double the amount of
cells you are pitching (from 6 million cells/ml to about 12 million
cells/ml). It is not necessary to pour off the liquid from the
starter... Just add it all to you full batch. This will defiantely
boost your cell count and allow for a healthy, cold ferment. If you
direct pitch from the Activator, I recommend you wait for signs of
fermentation before cooling the wort.
Please let me know if you have other questions.
Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
"
Cheers,
Adam L
I wrote to Wyeast and this is what they said about what I planned to do (see earlier in this thread):
"
OK, it sounds like you have planned this out well! If you want to
follow the protocol you described, I recommend making a starter. A one
liter starter is what I recommend. Doing this will double the amount of
cells you are pitching (from 6 million cells/ml to about 12 million
cells/ml). It is not necessary to pour off the liquid from the
starter... Just add it all to you full batch. This will defiantely
boost your cell count and allow for a healthy, cold ferment. If you
direct pitch from the Activator, I recommend you wait for signs of
fermentation before cooling the wort.
Please let me know if you have other questions.
Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
"
Cheers,
Adam L
Interesting topic and lots of useful info in this topic.
Just being new to brewing I have a question on liquid yeast and lagers.
I am only using kits at the moment but would like to brew a lager at the right temp.
Will a kit lager benefit a lot from lower temp brewing with a lager yeast or would it be a waste of time?
Look forward to your reply
Just being new to brewing I have a question on liquid yeast and lagers.
I am only using kits at the moment but would like to brew a lager at the right temp.
Will a kit lager benefit a lot from lower temp brewing with a lager yeast or would it be a waste of time?
Look forward to your reply
Everybody must believe in something.
I believe I will have another beer!!!!
I believe I will have another beer!!!!
Lethal, where would someone find a priming calculator ?lethaldog wrote: i have always bulk primed on that and never let my lagers sit out of the fridge for any more than 1/2 an hour before bottling, i always use a priming calculator and just enter the temp that the brew fermented at and have hit the carbonation target 100% of the time, once again it could just be blind luck but it works for me.
Im going to bottle my Euro Pilsner this weekend to make room in the fridge for another brew.
-
BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
this is another good one.
http://Oz.craftbrewer.org/library/metho ... uide.shtml
To answer those critics of my earlier comments on Diacetyl etc... Here is a quiet word from Mr Palmer.
10.4 Yeast Starters and Diacetyl Rests
There are two other items that are significant in brewing a good lager beer and I will describe them briefly. These are Yeast Pitching and the Diacetyl Rest. Lager brewing is best described in a book of its own and fortunately someone has done just that. See the Recommended Reading section in the appendices for more information.
Because of the cooler temperatures, the yeast is less active at first. The best way to ensure a strong, healthy lager fermentation is to pitch a much larger yeast starter than you would for an ale. Where you would pitch a one quart starter solution of liquid yeast for an ale, you would use a 2 or 3 quart starter for a lager. This is the equivalent of about 1/2 to 3/4 cup of yeast slurry. In addition, the pitching temperature should be the same as the fermentation temperature to prevent thermally shocking the yeast. In other words, you will need to chill the wort down to 45 - 55 °F before pitching the yeast. The yeast starter should also have been brought down to this temperature range while it was fermenting. A good way to do this is to pitch the yeast packet into a pint of wort at 60 °F, let that ferment for a day, cool it 5 degrees to 55°F and add another pint of aerated, cool wort. Let this also ferment for a day, and cool and pitch a third and even fourth time until you have built up 2 quarts or more of yeast starter that is comfortable at 45 -55 °F. I recommend that you pour off the excess liquid and only pitch the slurry to avoid some off-flavors from that much starter beer.
Some brewers pitch their yeast when the wort is warmer and slowly lower the temperature of the whole fermenter gradually over the course of several days until they have reached the optimum temperature for their yeast strain. This method works, and works well, but tends to produce more diacetyl (a buttery-flavored ketone) than the previous method. As the temperature drops the yeast become less active and are less inclined to consume the diacetyl that they initially produced. The result is a buttery/butterscotch flavor in the lager, which is totally out of style. Some amount of diacetyl is considered good in other styles such as dark ales and stouts, but is considered a flaw in lagers. To remove any diacetyl that may be present after primary fermentation, a diacetyl rest may be used. This rest at the end of primary fermentation consists of raising the temperature of the beer to 55-60 °F for 24 - 48 hours before cooling it down for the lagering period. This makes the yeast more active and allows them to eat up the diacetyl before downshifting into lagering mode. Some yeast strains produce less diacetyl than others; a diacetyl rest is needed only if the pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it.
http://Oz.craftbrewer.org/library/metho ... uide.shtml
To answer those critics of my earlier comments on Diacetyl etc... Here is a quiet word from Mr Palmer.
10.4 Yeast Starters and Diacetyl Rests
There are two other items that are significant in brewing a good lager beer and I will describe them briefly. These are Yeast Pitching and the Diacetyl Rest. Lager brewing is best described in a book of its own and fortunately someone has done just that. See the Recommended Reading section in the appendices for more information.
Because of the cooler temperatures, the yeast is less active at first. The best way to ensure a strong, healthy lager fermentation is to pitch a much larger yeast starter than you would for an ale. Where you would pitch a one quart starter solution of liquid yeast for an ale, you would use a 2 or 3 quart starter for a lager. This is the equivalent of about 1/2 to 3/4 cup of yeast slurry. In addition, the pitching temperature should be the same as the fermentation temperature to prevent thermally shocking the yeast. In other words, you will need to chill the wort down to 45 - 55 °F before pitching the yeast. The yeast starter should also have been brought down to this temperature range while it was fermenting. A good way to do this is to pitch the yeast packet into a pint of wort at 60 °F, let that ferment for a day, cool it 5 degrees to 55°F and add another pint of aerated, cool wort. Let this also ferment for a day, and cool and pitch a third and even fourth time until you have built up 2 quarts or more of yeast starter that is comfortable at 45 -55 °F. I recommend that you pour off the excess liquid and only pitch the slurry to avoid some off-flavors from that much starter beer.
Some brewers pitch their yeast when the wort is warmer and slowly lower the temperature of the whole fermenter gradually over the course of several days until they have reached the optimum temperature for their yeast strain. This method works, and works well, but tends to produce more diacetyl (a buttery-flavored ketone) than the previous method. As the temperature drops the yeast become less active and are less inclined to consume the diacetyl that they initially produced. The result is a buttery/butterscotch flavor in the lager, which is totally out of style. Some amount of diacetyl is considered good in other styles such as dark ales and stouts, but is considered a flaw in lagers. To remove any diacetyl that may be present after primary fermentation, a diacetyl rest may be used. This rest at the end of primary fermentation consists of raising the temperature of the beer to 55-60 °F for 24 - 48 hours before cooling it down for the lagering period. This makes the yeast more active and allows them to eat up the diacetyl before downshifting into lagering mode. Some yeast strains produce less diacetyl than others; a diacetyl rest is needed only if the pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it.
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
Thanks again. Since I started this post I've read all of Palmer. It's a great read!
I chose to pitch at 24 degrees and put in the fridge straight away. I made a 2 day diacatyl reast when the SpG (specific grav) hit 1020. The SpG was then 1012 and I've lagered the beer at 1-2 degrees for 3 weeks now. No buttery flavours are detectable. There is still a trace of odour. I hope this disapears! Taste is great though, clean, crisp and hoppy as a pilsner should be.
Cheers,
Adam L
I chose to pitch at 24 degrees and put in the fridge straight away. I made a 2 day diacatyl reast when the SpG (specific grav) hit 1020. The SpG was then 1012 and I've lagered the beer at 1-2 degrees for 3 weeks now. No buttery flavours are detectable. There is still a trace of odour. I hope this disapears! Taste is great though, clean, crisp and hoppy as a pilsner should be.
Cheers,
Adam L
-
BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
Good on yer Adam. That odour will fade in time after bottling and a small amount will remain which gives the lager/pils it's distinctiveness.
There's nothing wrong with starting the brew at say 24C and cooling it. I just prefer Palmers method of keeping things constant and just adding more yeast to begin with. I now add a cup or more yeast slurry to most brews.
There's nothing wrong with starting the brew at say 24C and cooling it. I just prefer Palmers method of keeping things constant and just adding more yeast to begin with. I now add a cup or more yeast slurry to most brews.
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
I have harvested 2 cups of the slurry and it's in my cold fridge waiting for the next larger to come along
Interestingly, the slurry from the Wyeast Danish Larger yeast did not separate out into 2 distict layers (turb and yeast). It remains as one loose mass. This didn't change when I added 1 L of boiled, cooled water to it, shook it and allowed to settle.
I'm considering getting a microscope so I can see and evaluate my yeast. Some aren't too expensive either, look here. This may be getting a bit serious thought ...... but us engineers like nerdy things like that
Cheers,
Adam L
Interestingly, the slurry from the Wyeast Danish Larger yeast did not separate out into 2 distict layers (turb and yeast). It remains as one loose mass. This didn't change when I added 1 L of boiled, cooled water to it, shook it and allowed to settle.
I'm considering getting a microscope so I can see and evaluate my yeast. Some aren't too expensive either, look here. This may be getting a bit serious thought ...... but us engineers like nerdy things like that
Cheers,
Adam L
Here's a brief summary of my brew. (TCB Wetpak Euro Pils)
I used lots of cold water to get the temp down to 16C before pitching the yeast, and I pitched 2 packs of Saflager. After about 12hrs the temp was down to 12C and fermentation kicked off at about 36hrs. It then fermented at 12C, afer 10 days it was at 1012, I let it warm up to 18C over about 24 hours , left it sit at 18 for 24 hrs, racked it and put it back in the fridge. Its now been in the fridge at around 4C for 10 days.
I took a sample for a hydrometer test and taste test yesterday afternoon. There was a quite a decent amount of carbonation, not heaps but more than Ive seen on any other racked beer. This afternoon there were still tiny bubbles being released.
This confirms for me, that I should let it warm up for at least 24hrs, maybe more, before bulk priming & bottling, or bulk prime and bottle cold with no delays after disturbing the brew by racking. Using the calculator supplied earlier by lethal.
Does it sound logical to others, that the brew will be ready to drink sooner, if we dont let the residual CO2 out of suspension before bottling ?
BTW, the taste was great, I had already had other beers though so . . .
I used lots of cold water to get the temp down to 16C before pitching the yeast, and I pitched 2 packs of Saflager. After about 12hrs the temp was down to 12C and fermentation kicked off at about 36hrs. It then fermented at 12C, afer 10 days it was at 1012, I let it warm up to 18C over about 24 hours , left it sit at 18 for 24 hrs, racked it and put it back in the fridge. Its now been in the fridge at around 4C for 10 days.
I took a sample for a hydrometer test and taste test
yesterday afternoon. There was a quite a decent amount of carbonation, not heaps but more than Ive seen on any other racked beer. This afternoon there were still tiny bubbles being released. This confirms for me, that I should let it warm up for at least 24hrs, maybe more, before bulk priming & bottling, or bulk prime and bottle cold with no delays after disturbing the brew by racking. Using the calculator supplied earlier by lethal.
Does it sound logical to others, that the brew will be ready to drink sooner, if we dont let the residual CO2 out of suspension before bottling ?
BTW, the taste was great, I had already had other beers though so . . .
Hi Biggles,
I'm new too, but here are my thoughts/what I've read:
1) The diacetyl rest is best done before the wort is finished fermenting. Say at 1020 instead of 1012. The yeast is more active and the increased temp helps the active yeast to consume the diacetyl. Possibly not a big issue though. Especially since you pitched the yeast at a fairly low temp to begin with and hence less diacetyl is produced in the first place.
2) Letting the beer warm before bulk priming and bottling actually removes CO2 from the beer. This is because CO2 gets less soluble in the beer as the temp increases. The reason people have recommended this to me is because they feel that you'll have a better idea of how much CO2 is actually in the beer and can hence calculate the correct amount of priming sugar to use.
For example, your beer started fermenting at 16 degs, fermented at 10 degs, was rested at 18 degs and then lagred at 4 degs. So .... how much CO2 is in solution? The answers is that we can't be sure. So, by letting the beer warm, to say 20 degrees, before priming and bottling we have a good idea of exactly how much CO2 is in the beer by checking the available charts.
3) Having more CO2 in the beer at bottling will not reduce the time required for the beer to carbonate to your target level. The time is set by how quickly the yeast can consume the priming sugar and 2 weeks @ 20 degrees is always what's recommended. This is true for lagers too.
The beer will have a higher carbonation level sooner if there is a lot of CO2 in the beer, but there will still be unconsumed sugar if you don't allow the yeast to fully attenuate.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Adam L
I'm new too, but here are my thoughts/what I've read:
1) The diacetyl rest is best done before the wort is finished fermenting. Say at 1020 instead of 1012. The yeast is more active and the increased temp helps the active yeast to consume the diacetyl. Possibly not a big issue though. Especially since you pitched the yeast at a fairly low temp to begin with and hence less diacetyl is produced in the first place.
2) Letting the beer warm before bulk priming and bottling actually removes CO2 from the beer. This is because CO2 gets less soluble in the beer as the temp increases. The reason people have recommended this to me is because they feel that you'll have a better idea of how much CO2 is actually in the beer and can hence calculate the correct amount of priming sugar to use.
For example, your beer started fermenting at 16 degs, fermented at 10 degs, was rested at 18 degs and then lagred at 4 degs. So .... how much CO2 is in solution? The answers is that we can't be sure. So, by letting the beer warm, to say 20 degrees, before priming and bottling we have a good idea of exactly how much CO2 is in the beer by checking the available charts.
3) Having more CO2 in the beer at bottling will not reduce the time required for the beer to carbonate to your target level. The time is set by how quickly the yeast can consume the priming sugar and 2 weeks @ 20 degrees is always what's recommended. This is true for lagers too.
The beer will have a higher carbonation level sooner if there is a lot of CO2 in the beer, but there will still be unconsumed sugar if you don't allow the yeast to fully attenuate.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Adam L
Adam,
I was once told, "You can always 'tell' an engineer, just not very much"
I too have been doing lots of reading about the various ways people do their brews. And as you pointed out yourself, its our choice what method we believe will work.
One respected community member doesnt warm his lagers before bulk priming and bottling, and according to his results from using the priming calculator, gets the carbonation just right. Others report trying that method and having champagne like beer bubbles. Still others report warming it up first and still getting over carbonated beer.
Ive formed my decision based on what I think is best plus the priming calculator gives about 20(+ or - a few grams) difference between priming for 12C or 20C. So im going to prime for 12C. That way I should be saved from overcarbonated beer, assuming that I lost some carbonation in the diacetyl rest warm up my beer had and my preference is for lighter carbonation in beer anyway so . . . .
Andrew
I was once told, "You can always 'tell' an engineer, just not very much"
I too have been doing lots of reading about the various ways people do their brews. And as you pointed out yourself, its our choice what method we believe will work.
One respected community member doesnt warm his lagers before bulk priming and bottling, and according to his results from using the priming calculator, gets the carbonation just right. Others report trying that method and having champagne like beer bubbles. Still others report warming it up first and still getting over carbonated beer.
Ive formed my decision based on what I think is best plus the priming calculator gives about 20(+ or - a few grams) difference between priming for 12C or 20C. So im going to prime for 12C. That way I should be saved from overcarbonated beer, assuming that I lost some carbonation in the diacetyl rest warm up my beer had and my preference is for lighter carbonation in beer anyway so . . . .
Andrew