The dreaded homebrew taste

[big dave]

Howdy crew

Have noticed a homebrewy twang creeping into some of my brews. It was not there from the start, and I am not sure why it is there now. Oxidisation? I only bought a bottling extension after brew #5 (no such taste in brews after #5.... yet....), and I have been tipping my hot wort into the top of the fermenter, and sloshing water in to aerate the wort prior to pitching. Fermentation temp? Have kept the fermenter in the shed, out of direct light, mostly between 19 and 24 degrees.

At Finnigann's invitation, I am going to cut and paste a few recipes and tasting notes on here, and if anyone has any ideas I would love to hear em!

1. Coopers English Bitter
Feb 2010
1.7kg can of Coopers English Bitter (cheers George)
Yeast from kit
1kg Coopers Dextrose (added after 24 hours – forgotten!!)
23l, OG 1.034 (??), pitching temp 28° ish, maintained around 24° for most of the time
Bottled after 6 days, FG 1.010, primed with dextrose, ABV 3.8% (??)

Notes
*Tested after a week; dark but reasonably clear, clean and bitter, not unlike English bitter!
*March – drinking ok, pleasing first effort, some home-brew taste. Plenty sediment. Alcohol is certainly higher than 3.8%
*Late April – enjoying this now, drinks well after 24 hours in the fridge. Does not retain any head. Not many left….
*June - 4 months – Not bad, but has a decided homebrew taste.

2. Brewcraft LCPA
Mar 2010
1.7kg can Black Rock Pilsener Blonde
1kg Brewcraft #15 brew booster
150g Wheat malt
15g Cascade & 15g Willamette each steeped 15 min at flameout
Safale US 04 Pitched dry
18l, OG 1.052
Bottled 5.3.10 after a week, FG 1.014, primed with dextrose, ABV 5.6%

Notes
*tested after a week – cloudy, pale, great hoppy nose and taste, big head which mostly disappears. Very nice.
*Late March – noticed some homebrew taste, but had not long been in the fridge. George, Flop, Slats all pretty happy!
*Mid April – drinks very well. Hops have mellowed a touch, head still enthusiastic, nice and clear.
*Late May – unusual, seems to be a decided homebrew twang on some tastings, which is absent on others. Not so hoppy now, but still easy to drink.
*Mid June – 3 months – there seems to be a homebrew taste. Hops not prominent any more. Big head well retained. I preferred it younger.

3. Coopers Real (Strong) Ale
15.3.2010
1.7kg can Coopers Real Ale
1kg Coopers BE #1
500g Coopers LDM
10g Cascade & 10g Willamette each steeped 15 min at flameout
Safale US 05 Pitched dry
20l, OG 1.050 (not properly stirred?)
Bottled 22.3.2010 , FG 1.016, primed with dextrose, ABV ?? 5.5% at least

Notes
*tested after a week – cloudy, pale, not so hoppy as #2, big head. Will go very well.
* Late March – noticed some homebrew taste at poker night, but had not long been in the fridge. George, Flop, Slats all pretty happy!
*Mid May – drinking very nicely now, perhaps nicer than #2, retaining a hoppier note.
*Late June – Hops seem to be mellowing, but homebrew taste is now more apparent. Still drinking ok.

4. Cider - unsuccessful!

5. Shed Floor Ale – 23.4.2010
1.7kg can Coopers Pale Ale
1kg LDME
200g Caramunich crystal, steeped 30min @70°-ish, sparged
20 min boil, 4l with 100g LDM
15g Cascade at 10 min, 10g at flameout, wort chilled in sink
Safale S-04 Rehydrated and fed some white sugar, pitched at 20°
21 litres, OG 1.044
Bottled after 15 days, FG 1.014 , ABV 4.5%

Notes
*Tapped off a sample after 2 weeks in fermenter to check SG prior to bottling. Must have left the tap dripping, all but empty next day. Shed smelt terrific. Salvaged 3 stubbies and 2 longnecks.... O dear!
*tasted a week after bottling – very very nice.
*developing a homebrew twang after a couple of weeks, but not too bad.
*Mid June – strong homebrew taste, quite unpleasant….


6. “The George” Porter – 8.5.2010 (Wassa’s Honey Porter recipe +/-)
1.7kg can Cascade Chocolate Mahogany Porter
1.5kg liquid malt extract
325g redgum honey
15g Cascade boiled 10min
Coopers kit yeast, rehydrated, Cascade yeast in boil for nutrient. Pitched at 23°
19 litres, OG 1.062
Bottled (with bottling tube) 25.5.2010, FG 1.018, ABV 6.4%

Notes
*tasted at SG test after a week in fermenter – very strong honey note, wow! Moved to shed. Has been between16 and 21°
*another taste prior to bottling – honey has mellowed, looks quite a light shade for a porter. Cold in the shed, brew <10°
*After a week in the bottle – prominent honey notes, pretty easy to drink, should be very enjoyable
*Late June – drinking very well now, honey notes on the finish, lovely. No homebrew taste….

7. Shed Floor Ale 2.0 – 18.5.2010
1.7kg can Coopers Real Ale
1kg LDME
200g Caramunich crystal, steeped 30min @70°-ish, sparged
30 min boil, 3l with 150g LDM, kit yeast boiled for nutrient
20g Cascade & 10g Willamette at 20 min, 10g Cascade & 15g Willamette at flameout
Yeast cultured from 1 longneck each Coopers Pale and Sparkling, fed dextrose, pitched at 25°
19.5 litres, OG 1.048
Bottled 1.6.2010, FG 1.014, ABV 5%

Notes
*Slow start with re-cultured yeast, but good foamy krausen after 20 hours, SG 1.044. Good bubbling by day 2.
* moved to shed after 6 days of 16-19°
*drinking very nicely after a week in the bottle, hoppy nose and taste, not homebrewy.
*Late June – drinking very well, clear, reasonable head, nice hoppy notes and bitter clean finish.


8. “Hare & Copper” Golden Ale – 28.5.2010 (a nod to Dr Smurto’s all extract JSGA clone)
2kg liquid malt extract
600g dry wheat malt extract
250g dextrose
200g Caramalt crystal, steeped 30min @70°-ish, sparged
60 min boil, 6l with 1kg extract
25g Pride of Ringwood at 60 min
15g Amarillo at 15 min, and 15g again at 5 min. 20g Amarillo at flameout. Wort chilled to 40°-ish in sink.
Danstar Nottingham yeast (same as US05??), rehydrated, pitched at 26°
20 litres, OG 1.046
Bottled 16.6.2010, FG 1.014, ABV 4.8%

Notes
* tasting good after two weeks in the bottle, head a little thin, but good clarity, hoppy nose and taste and clean finish

[rotten]

G'day mate.
You have certainly progressed quickly with your brews. I would suggest firstly making sure sanitisation is perfect on all counts. Little bottler or similar in my opinion should not make any difference to brew quality, if sanitised, bottled or not.
Keep doing your boils, for every brew! adjusting recipes if nescassary to do so. They certainly made a difference to me. Also keep using dried malt for head retention, instead of pre-mixed concoctions, you will have better control this way instaed of so called finished products or brew enhancers.
As far as losing quality of your beer goes, all of the above may help that. Also IMHO DON'T taste your beer too early, 3-4 weeks at earliest, give it time to mature a bit. Pilseners (or blondes pretending to be pilseners) or lagers inparticular take 12++ weeks to mature, give them time. If not hoppy enough after that add more hops. There are free or paid for programmes to help with that. I personnaly made a lager SUPPOSED to be ready in two weeks, still waitin on it 13 weeks later.
I do hope there are more experienced views to be heard, but that's mine.
Cheers

P.S. Mix concentrate in fermenter or malt extract, Add water to fermenter to COOL, COOL your wort (boil), add to fermenter, then top up to final volume & pitching temp. then add yeast at pitching temp. Sorry, also make sure you follow all your intended steps as you go, not when finished.
Good luck
Cheers

[Finnagann]

It sounds like the beers that are picking up a homebrew taste are doing over time (for the most part) which sounds to me like HSA (hot side aeration)... ie sloshing hot wort into the fermentor before cooling. I don't have any experience with this myself though I've only heard about it.

Also, "homebrew taste" is a bit subjective for troubleshooting purposes. I find that dextrose give a HB taste, specifically a cidery taste in large amounts and kind of a twang in smaller and larger amounts... I have found that this taste will condition out some if left for a month or two depending on how strong it is in the first place. BE will do the same thing IMO, if enough is added.

Can you describe the taste you're experiencing more?

Someone with more exp have any thoughts?

Glad to see things have been improving for you

[warra48]

Much as I'd love to help, I've never been sensitive to "homebrew twang", and can't say I've ever noticed it in my beers.
I have picked up DMS in some of my early kits and bits days, and one of my first AG lagers, but I was able to identify the source of that as too hot fermentation with lager yeasts, as well as underpitching lager yeast.

All I can pick up from your recipes are two things:
1. Feeding some of your yeast sugar before pitching. There are no nutrients in sugar, so it's not recommended. Just add some boiled cooled water to your dry yeast to proof it, and pitch that. If I want to start one of my brews at high kraeusen, I add 2 to 3 litres of my actual brew to the starter slurry to get it to take off, and then pitch that. Admittedly, I use liquid yeasts.
2. Some of your pitching temperatures seem to have been on the high side for my liking. I prefer to pitch at fermentation temperatures, rather than to pitch high and wait to bring the temperature of the brew down.

I agree with the comments already made that sanitation is very important.
Also, you'd be better, after your boil, to cool down your brew to pitching temperatures before adding it to the fermenter and before pitching your yeast.

Can't help with your recipes. I've never used brew boosters or BE1 or BE2.

Hope you sort it out.

[big dave]

Thanks a heap fellas, this forum is a great little resource.

I have paid some attention to the sanitising. At first I was giving everything long baths in strong White King solutions with a hot rinse. Now I am only using the bleach on new or dirty bottles, and for my own reused bottles just using detergent and very hot water, with another smoking hot rinse (they get a double rinse after emptying, and are loosely re-capped). Should that be ok? The fermenters and other bits and pieces all still get the bleach.

I think I can manage to steer clear of the kits and pre-mixed bits now, so will be all-extract (until I can justify AG gear....). I have been adding all the extract to the boil at the end, and bringing it back to the boil to knock off the cooties, then popping the pot into the cold sink and changing the water to cool it down. Dont really plan to try knocking out a lager yet.

It sounds like the beers that are picking up a homebrew taste are doing over time (for the most part) which sounds to me like HSA (hot side aeration)...

Can you describe the taste you're experiencing more?

I reckon wet cardboard would be the closest description I have heard. HSA? It will be interesting to see if anything changes with the later brews, because the early ones that developed the twang were K&B which were poured hot into the fermenter and stirred up.... Most of the more recent brews were larger boils which needed cooling in the sink.... Am only using dextrose for priming bottles now. A teaspoon of dextrose shouldn't make a twang should it?

All I can pick up from your recipes are two things:
1. Feeding some of your yeast sugar before pitching.
2. Some of your pitching temperatures seem to have been on the high side for my liking.

Cheers Warra, I have made a note from your previous advice on yeast nourishment, and won't be using sugar any more. So far as pitching temp, I will try to control it better. I have only tank water, which at this time of year is very cold, so if my wort was added around 30 - 35 degrees, the added water should pull the temp down. How long is it safe to leave a fermenter un-pitched?

[rotten]

The longest I have ever left a brew un-pitched for was 24 hrs, and I didn't like the wait one bit. It was my first brew after a longish break and i took short cuts, I thought. Just too lazy to measure really. Brew turned out fine though. If you are around 24c, pitch yeast and it will cool over a day. If you do leave it and don't pitch, , seal it, and cool in bath or laundry sink or something. Better for your sanity. Do a trial or two if you can spare the water with just your water and warm wort (water) to get a better feel of what amounts and temps you need.
Cheers.

[warra48]

So far as pitching temp, I will try to control it better. I have only tank water, which at this time of year is very cold, so if my wort was added around 30 - 35 degrees, the added water should pull the temp down. How long is it safe to leave a fermenter un-pitched?

In winter I can usually get my temperature after chilling down to low 20ºC or so degrees. In summer, I struggle to get it lower than 25ºC.
After I drain my kettle to the fermenter, I seal it with clingwrap, and place it in the fridge. For ales, I pitch my yeast later that evening or early the next morning.
For lagers, it's usually the next morning.
I've never had a problem with that, but I am fussy with my sanitation. I use Iodophor, and mix up a fresh batch every hour if needed.
Iodophor is an easy to use sanitiser, and it's mixed 1 mil to 1 litre. Very economical, and best of all, it's no rinse. I bought mine over a year ago at Dave's Homebrew at North Sydney, and I'm still only half way through the bottle.
I've never been a fan of sanitisers which need rinsing. To me, once rinsed, your equipment can be no more sanitary than the water used for rinsing.

[Anna]

I reckon wet cardboard would be the closest description I have heard. HSA? It will be interesting to see if anything changes with the later brews, because the early ones that developed the twang were K&B which were poured hot into the fermenter and stirred up.... Most of the more recent brews were larger boils which needed cooling in the sink.... Am only using dextrose for priming bottles now. A teaspoon of dextrose shouldn't make a twang should it?

This is very interesting Dave. I've had this "HB taste"problem on and off since I started brewing, 18 months ago. Now that I've got more into Kits & Bits, steeping grain, adding hops etc. the problem seems to have faded. It didn't really click with me until I read that para above. I did an "easy" brew a couple of weeks ago, just Coopers Draught can and 1 kg BE2 and, lo & behold, HB twang again! With these easy Kit & Kilo brews I do what you did - ie. mix the can of goop in the fermenter with the hot water and slosh around. So maybe it is HSA, because with my more complex brews I always cool the wort down in the sink first. This last Draught with the BE2 is b.....y awful! Or... another thought... maybe adding hops and grain is just masking the HB taste!


Keep adding and good luck!

Anna

[earle]

With these easy Kit & Kilo brews I do what you did - ie. mix the can of goop in the fermenter with the hot water and slosh around. So maybe it is HSA, because with my more complex brews I always cool the wort down in the sink first.

I only add enough malt to the boil for the hops and the rest goes straight in the fermenter with a few litres of water from the tap. A good stir gets its dissolved enough. I reckon the bit from the coopers instructions about mixing the goop in boiling water should be chucked along with the rest of the coopers instructions. The boiled wort is cooled in the sink like Anna suggested above before adding to the fermenter.

[SuperBroo]

Palmers book mentions many times about oxygenation of hot wort, so there must be something positive gained by avoiding splashing of hot wort.

Since I started AG brewing about 4 Months ago, I've only had 1 brew which has been 'home brewy', and I think thats because I shook it in the keg like mad, but forgot to purge the oxygen with co2.

Since I've been AG brewing I've always used a wort chiller, and been very careful not to oxygenate the wort until it has cooled down to 20 deg c.

Earles advice is probably spot on, just add enough malt for the hops, and chuck the rest in the fermenter with cool water.

Cheers,
Chris.

[Finnagann]

I have found that using dex to prime gives a bit of an off flavour... something a bit fuzzy and a touch metallic. I'm not great at describing flavour. However, that seems to condition out with time and what you are talking about comes on with time.

I am a bit impatient and like to drink most as early as I can so I've been priming with honey the last few batches, with good results. I'm planning to try Warra's technique of using castor sugar to prime, just haven't got around to tracking any down yet.

[Anna]

I always use just table sugar for priming, not dex, so I don't think it's the priming stuff at fault. Although, bear in mind that the prime ingredient is dex in both BE1 (750 gm) and BE2 (500 gm) . I find that the HBy taste is there straight away after carbonation, not after a long period. And here's another puzzle: I made up a Coopers Draught with RAW SUGAR ONLY (just for an experiment) and although it was terrible and HBy for the first month, now 3 months later, it IS BETTER THAN THE ONE MADE WITH BE2, which is a month old, and has lost most of its HBy taste! Go figure! Hmmm, maybe dex. is the culprit!

[SuperBroo]

Finnigan, if you want to drink it sooner - go down the AG path mate

[drsmurto]

I'd put large amounts of money it's not the dex.

I still prime my AGs with dex (on the rare occasion i bottle condition beer which i did a few weeks back, all 6 bottles)

Hops do tend to cover the HB twang although i believe the generally accepted consensus is that kit twang is due to old cans of extract. Using fresh extract should remove this issue so if you have a good HBS that has a high turnover then you should be OK.

All malt certainly made a big difference for me as well as steeped spec grains, fresh hops from a reputable supplier, good yeast (never the stuff under the lid). That said, dex in small quantities to dry a beer out is perfectly acceptable. Maltodextrin or corn syrup (however it is labelled) is a filler and should be avoided.

Brew enhancers are like a lucky dip, particularly in the case of brewcraft who regularly don't label them with the actual ingredients (how this is legal is beyond me). You are much better off buying the ingredients yourself and then combining them. Both from a freshness point of view as well as financially. The day i started using recipes from this forum and ditched brew enhancers was the day i made my first award winning beer - a variation on Boonies LCPA. It actually beat AG beers to be crowned best of show.

And you can never be too anal about sanitation.

Hot water isn't sanitary, neither is splashing boiling water around the place. Some people do this and claim not to have had an infection in 100 years of brewing. That may well be the case but the fact remains it's not sanitary and is a game of russian roulette.

Everything should be sanitised from the fermenter onwards. That includes bottles and lids.

I used bleach in the latter stages of my kit brewing days before discovering no rinse sanitisers.

Napisan cleans, it doesn't sanitise.

No rinse sanitisers are cheaper to use in the long run.

[Anna]

While we're on the subject Doc, I've often wondered why we are so anal about using boiled water for yeast starters, boiling the wort, sanitising everything, etc. and then go and fill the fermenter up with cold unboiled water! Must be some reason I guess?

PS: Re HB taste - maybe it's the maltodextrin then? (BE1 & BE2 both have 250gm included).

[rotten]

Castor sugar works good for priming, it's at any supermarket. I would agree with the doc re age of kit cans. I always check the date these days before buying, don't buy anything with less than 12-18 months till use by.
Cheers

[SuperBroo]

Hi Anna,
I think cold unboiled tap water which has some chlorine or something is probably OK.
I have rainwater, so doing AG is ok with it because the whole lot is boiled for at least an hour before going into the fermenter.

I have used rainwater in K&K brews, but always been nervous about bugs with rainwater, seem to have been ok though.


Cheers
Chris

[Chrisp]

Finnigannn, Castor sugar is actually finely ground table sugar. To make your own just put some sugar in the food proceser for a bit, let the sugar dust settle before opening and their you have it. It is sold as superfine sugar in the U.S. It is called caster sugar because the grains have been ground fine enough to fit through a sprinkler, or - "Caster". Finer still is confectioners sugar ,which has been mechanically ground but usually has starch added to stop it clumping. Starting to sound a bit, how do you spell that word, (plagerised) . Thanks to ochef.com, or some such thing. Anyhow i find the HB tast fading the further I get from K&K. Is it naturale to think every brew is the best one yet ?
Cheers Crisp

[Bum]

Thanks to ochef.com,

Who should thank Wikipedia.

Is it naturale to think every brew is the best one yet ?
Cheers Crisp

Baring the odd mistake, you're wasting your time if you don't feel this way (even if it isn't true).

[Finnagann]

Finnigannn, Castor sugar is actually finely ground table sugar. To make your own just put some sugar in the food proceser for a bit, let the sugar dust settle before opening and their you have it. It is sold as superfine sugar in the U.S. It is called caster sugar because the grains have been ground fine enough to fit through a sprinkler, or - "Caster". Finer still is confectioners sugar ,which has been mechanically ground but usually has starch added to stop it clumping. Starting to sound a bit, how do you spell that word, (plagerised) . Thanks to ochef.com, or some such thing. Anyhow i find the HB tast fading the further I get from K&K. Is it naturale to think every brew is the best one yet ?
Cheers Crisp

What would be the difference between using castor sugar and plain white sugar... it will get broken down in the boil anyways won't it?