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speedie wrote: It is good practice to get the brew of the yeast aspa
Cheers speedie

Yes, as Bum has stated your comment Speedie comes down to an ideology that is somewhat dated. There has been much discussion upon this topic in recent years. More recent beliefs would argue that the off tastes or autolysis is not an issue on a home brew scale. With large surface areas of yeast in commercial fermentors and the sheer weight of the yeast and depth of the yeast in these conical fermentors, the weight upon the yeast can lead to autolysis. Hence the reason many large scale breweries rack(and to re-use yeast). Autolysis is of even greater concern with lagers where the brew would be left on the yeast for long periods. At our scale (and I would imagine at a 400l scale) that this is not an issue as there is simply not that kind of pressure placed on the yeast. Additionally, at a homebrew scale it yet again even less of an issue with ales.

If you do some research, even the likes of Palmer have gone back upon what has been published in earlier editions in regards for the need to racking. I can't find the link at the moment, but if I remember that my comments above can be attibuted to a fairly recent interview with Palmer.

IN summary, rack if you wish to, but you're increasing exposure of the beer. Rack to improve clarity(but yeast will settle just as well in a primary as in a secondary) , but as others have shown via photos, it's not needed to get a clear beer!

Cheers

Hirns

Do as I do not as I say
From experience with brews left on the yeast for extended periods there are definite flavour changes
These observations are from past brewing and not what is stated in books
I can only give guidance from what is observed from past experience
speedie

speedie wrote:Do as I do not as I say

We all know where you stand in this regard Brew Bible. It is one thing to state your observations....

speedie wrote:Warra
Please understand that primary fermentation for ale yeast is generally 4-5 days @ ale temperatures

Informed debate is healthy, rather than a dictating, condesending, kwow it all manner but you seem to struggle somewhat with being able to consider the views of others, let alone debate them or heaven forbid accept views that exist outside of your own little world.

speedie wrote:From experience with brews left on the yeast for extended periods there are definite flavour changes

warra48 wrote:I also enjoy my beers for flavour, not alcohol.
My starting gravities have been anywhere from 1.037 to 1.060.
All my ales have a minimum of two weeks in primary, and some of them have had up to four weeks.
The time we choose to leave our beers in primary has nothing to do with their ABV. I know I could bottle many of my brews after a week, and some of them seem to have done their bit in about 4 days. I think my beers are better for the extra time in primary, for the same reasons as set out by DrS.

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drsmurto wrote:10-14 days is my standard time for an ale which allows time for fermentation to be completed and also for the yeast to mop up any off flavours produced during fermentation. .

Isn't that what others have been stating... from their experience?

Hirns

Thanks hirns and point taken

An update on brew
After racking off the yeast it was put into a sealed fermenter for maturation
And is sitting in the coolroom @ 2.5 degrees
I feel that I will leave it there until mid December
Add correct amount of dextrose an ale yeast ,then transfer to bottles for secondary fermentation
Leave it for another six months then sample and assess

The second runnings that was made from the main mash has been dry hopped with goldings plugs and is also sitting in the coldroom I did however do a small 20 litre keg for sampling and it is surprisingly refreshing beer @ 2.9% A/v
One could call it driving beer
Will post later comments
Speedie

speedie wrote:An update on brew
Add correct amount of dextrose an ale yeast ,

You Have To Re-introduce a yeast culture to get secondary ferm, /carbonation?
Why???

Is Pac-man dead?
Has Space Invaders taken over?

Mick.

fresh yeast is better to start secondary

Well, well, well, that explains why none of my brews ever carbonate in the bottle.
I've just learned I need to add fresh yeast at bottling time.

Can't understand why none of the brewing texts I've read have ever mentioned this before.

Thank you speedie, my life has just been enriched beyond measure.

Perhaps you haven't stressed your muated yeast strain enough Warra.

Now, now. I'm sure we all know of commercial beers that do this.

I'm sure they all do it for a good reason, however.

Apologies.
I quite forgot myself there.
Bum is correct.

Bum wrote:Now, now. I'm sure we all know of commercial beers that do this.

I'm sure they all do it for a good reason, however.

Yeah, my limited understanding is that they might add a different yeast to change the beer's profile or a lager yeast for extended conditioning to help clean up the beer as in improve crispness etcetera.

Speedy, what is your reason or reasoning behind adding the second strain of yeast other than "fresh yeast is better to start secondary"? Can you elaborate upon (particularly on a a homebrew scale) how this would contribute any significant benefits. If a fresh smack pack was used in the primary and the brew is bottled not long after the completion of fermentation, then isn't this yeast fresh enough. If the beer has been lagered at low temps in sealed conditions, isn't this how you would expect commerical yeast to be stored before raising the temp to allow carbonation? I'd be interested to see how a couple of these would compare with the same beer that have been allowed to carb as per usuall with the primary yeast, all else the same (and with the kegged beer bottled via counter flow chiller).

Hirns


Hirns

speedie wrote:fresh yeast is better to start secondary

Didn't you spend a thread discussing how your re cultured Pacman yeast was as good as yeast fresh from the brewery.
What happend to it, did you treat it badly?

after cold settling for extended times it would fair to conclude that what was in susspension has settled out
i then rack off this into a clean vessel add fresh yeast dextrose and bottle
try it see what you think

speedie wrote:after cold settling for extended times it would fair to conclude that what was in susspension has settled out
i then rack off this into a clean vessel add fresh yeast dextrose and bottle
try it see what you think

Speedy,

thanks for the reply. I can see your thinking, but I know people who cold condition for weeks, filter through a 1 micron filter before bottling and there is still always enough yeast to carb the beer(it may take a little longer ie 2-3weeks.

Have you ever tried a different way like priming a bottle without the additional yeast?

Hirns

Yeah, you can CC, fine and filter and there will still be yeast in your beer. Only reason to add more on a HB scale (which you're still on, speedie) is if your yeast isn't up to the job after primary. It is possible that you could remove so much yeast that it'll take longer than you like for your beers to carb up but in that case why wouldn't you just ease up on your yeast removal process so more remains? You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

hirns have a read on this paper about average yeast size
there would be little amount of yeast count after a one micron flitration which is about stirile
http://www.coulterflow.com/bciflow/docu ... 2046A).pdf
cheers speedie

I know several brewers who rack, gelatine, polyclar, filter and bottle condition.

No-one has ever reported trouble with carbonation and for your proof Speedie, one has taken out a 1st place in a previous AABC, arguably the highest amateur brewing competition in the country.

1 micron is not even close to sterile filtration, you need to get down to 0.35 micron.

I rack through a filter after a 14 day primary for Ales & 21 days for Lagers then cold condition for a fortnight, add Polyclar & have still had to cut down the size of my standard sized sugar measure because my bottles have been over carbonated.

Admittedly, my filter is probably not 1 micron, it is simply a piece of 1 1/4 poly pipe, threaded on each end (buy them from any pumping supplies) stuffed with fishtank filter wool & a hose tail screwed on each end. The tighter I pack it, the finer the filter.
I normally pack it so it only flows about 30 - 50ml/Min @ a 1m head so I have to leave it over night.

Back when I was C/conditioning kit beers & still using Coopers kit yeast, I did have some trouble getting them to carb up but since using better yeasts it has not been an issue.

Cheers, Mick.

drsmurto wrote:I know several brewers who rack, gelatine, polyclar, filter and bottle condition...