Boiling all?

[lethaldog]

I just dont do kits any more although i to stopped boiling my kits in the end cos for some reason the quality of the kits has dramatically changed in the last year or so ( especially the coopers standard range) and they seem to clump and seperate when you boil, maybe its just me but i go AG now all the way and i get to do lots of boiling And you cant go past the quality..

So theres my advice go Ag and you dont have to worry about whether or not to boil a kit

[rwh]

Yeah, the malt in the kit can is already sterile, and has been boiled during its original manufacture. I add mine right at the end of the boil when I can still scrape the can out with my spoon and have the hot wort sanitise it.

Your average cheap can probably isn't going to suffer all that much from boiling though; it'll go a bit darker (through formation of melanoidins) but it's unlikely there's any hop flavour or aroma in the kit to be lost. It's worth being more careful with the expensive cans though.

[Trough Lolly]

I'd be very surprised if every kit on the market would have aroma & flavour additions. & I agree that to degree these compounds, if they are there at all, will dissipate. But only to a degree. I've had beers with a single addition boiled for 60min & still had plenty of hop flavour.

I've no idea whether every kit has aroma and flavour additions - and that isn't the point of my reply. In the case where a kit does have these aroma and flavour additions, I'm simply suggesting that a vigorous boil will knock out some some of the underlying flavour and aroma essences that were added to the kit by the kit maker and for that reason, I counsel against boiling a kit that that's been boiled and hopped already.
A single hop addition clearly adds flavour and aroma compounds as well as a relatively larger proportion of alpha acid bitterness to the final product - my Steam Beer recipes are based on a single bittering addition of NB for 60 mins and they have hop flavour and aroma aspects...

True that there will not be as much break as an all grain boil. But to compare a tinned kit to a fresh wort kit is a little silly. The whole processing is different...

Disagree - the comparison was relevant in the context of your comment "...most malt extracts don't have the break removed" which to me suggested that a benefit of boiling a kit was to remove break material. I don't think that's a good enough reason to sacrifice a proportion of the kit's hop aroma and flavour aspects just to try and pull some protein break out of the extract...

My previous point was that, from what I've heard, is that tinned kits are not boiled (unlike a fresh wort kit which is) hence there is no (or less) break formation in the production - which I'm lead to believe can cause extract twang.

To pinch your turn of phrase - I'd be very surprised if they canned pre-hopped liquid malt extract without boiling it...

I thought the issue was "will a boil make a beer taste any better"?I agree that you may lose some hop flavour & aroma. But the boil may also have other positive effects such as helping to drop the compounds responsible for extract twang (lipids etc?). It's a bit of a catch 22 really. But nothing that a fresh hop addition can't fix

Agree with the hop addition bit!
As for the kit "twang", I must confess that I only found that issue rearing its ugly head by authoritative ex-kit / now all grain brewers who would brazenly suggest that a kit could never taste as good as an all grain beer - which is not only wrong but offensive to every excellent extract and kit based beer made today! Rather than blaming the kit, perhaps some thought should be given to the lack of fresh ingredients - including hops - and the presence of dextrose in many kit brew recipes?
Cheers,
TL

[chris.]

To pinch your turn of phrase - I'd be very surprised if they canned pre-hopped liquid malt extract without boiling it...

Muntons do not mention a boil in a breakdown of the process on their website.

"During malt extract production, the grist (coarse milled malt) is added to hot water. Sometimes enzymes are also added. This infusion (the ‘mash’) is stirred and heated (mashing) allowing the digestion of the starch, proteins, and additional compounds present in the malt. A range of sugars and protein breakdown products are generated, and are taken into solution, the malt is therefore ‘extracted’. The ‘mash’ is then filtered to remove any insoluble matter. After the mash has been filtered it is referred to as wort. The wort is then evaporated. "

http://www.muntons.com/glossary/glossary_technical.asp

& I cant find any mention on the Coopers site:

http://coopers.com.au/maltExtracts.php

[mobydick]

"The wort is then evaporated" suggests to me that they raise the temperature to evaporate off a certain amount of water. I doubt they let it evaporate at room temperature because it would take ages. As any cook will tell you, the way to make a reduction, jus, stock, or extract if you will, is to boil off the water. So although not explicitly stated, I infer that they saying they boil the wort to reduce it to extract. "The wort is evaporated" is just marketing spin for, "we boil the living c*ap out of it".

[warra48]

But the kit makers evaporate in a partial vacuum, which means they do not need to boil at 100ºC like we do, but achieve evaporation at a lower temperature.

[bottle top]

How do they hop it without boiling it?

[rwh]

Ever heard of isohop? It's a form of hop oil that has been artificially isomerised so that it will dissolve directly in wort. That's one possibility, especially in cheaper kits. It's also used by large breweries to supplement the bitterness of their finished beers to bring them into spec.

[Chris]

Moby, Warra's right about the vacuum. It's more of a sublimation of the water than an evaporation per se.

And as for the good old squirt of isohop in every can...

Often the hop character in a kit is a good enough reason to boil it out! (not that you can really boil out isohop).

[Trough Lolly]

...and the isohop saves the manufacturer the hassle of filtering the hop matter out of the wort. Terrible stuff, IMHO...give me fresh hops anyday
Cheers,
TL

[Trough Lolly]

Moby, Warra's right about the vacuum. It's more of a sublimation of the water than an evaporation per se.

And as for the good old squirt of isohop in every can...

Often the hop character in a kit is a good enough reason to boil it out! (not that you can really boil out isohop).

Coopers refer to partial vacuum here:

Dark
Dark Malt Extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted barley with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C. Then the resulting liquid is filtered and reduced through evaporation under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. The grist comprises a proportion of roasted malted barley as constituent of the mash in order to produce a malt extract with a dark colour.

Standard ND
Malt Extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted barley with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C, then filtering and evaporating the resulting liquid under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. The grist comprises a high proportion of malted barley as constituent of the mash in order to produce a malt extract with a medium amber colour.

Light
Light Malt Extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted and unmalted barley with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C, then filtering and evaporating the resulting liquid under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. The grist comprises a proportion of unmalted barley as constituent of the mash in order to produce a malt extract with a light amber colour.

Wheat
Wheat Malt Extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted barley and wheat with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C, then filtering and evaporating the resulting liquid under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. The Grist comprises a high proportion of malted wheat as constituent of the mash in order to produce a malt extract with a medium light amber colour.

Amber
Amber Malt Extract is produced by mashing finely ground malted barley and crystal malt with water at a temperature not exceeding 75C, then filtering and evaporating the resulting liquid under partial vacuum until it is the consistency of thick honey. The grist comprises a proportion of crystal malt as constituent of the mash in order to produce a malt extract with an amber colour.

I'll happily stand corrected, but my take on the above is exactly what "Chris." pointed out earlier - they don't boil the concentrate - just mix in some hop bittering compound and the unsuspecting kit and kilo brewer doesn't boil anything - just pours in the concentrate, adds some sugar, tops up with water, pitches yeast and seals. A no boil brew?

Perhaps an email to Coopers is in order to clarify what actually occurs during the "partial vacuum" process?

Edit: Email sent!

Cheers,
TL

[chris.]

Edit: Email sent!

Cheers,
TL

Nice work TL.

I've relistened to the Craftbrewer radio episode (Sept 2nd 06 if anyone's interested) which features an interview with Palmer. After visiting Briess he states that brewers grade extract has the hot break (but not cold break) removed. Well atleast the Briess extract does. He actually states that Coopers & Muntons do aswell but I believe he's just speculating. from the little research I've done I've found no evidence that they remove the break. I'm interested to hear what Coopers come back to you with.

[Trough Lolly]

I'm interested to hear what Coopers come back to you with.

Wait no longer....here's the response:

G'day Rowan.
The general consensus is correct. There is no need to boil Coopers hopped malt extract kits because we treat a home brew beer brew in exactly the same way as one of our commercial beer brews. That is, the brewing (mashing, filtration, sparging, boiling and clarification) has already been done here. One of the main reasons for boiling extract (apart from imparting hop bitterness to the sweet wort) is to achieve hot break. This has already occurred here at the brewery. Occasionally you may see evidence of cold break at home when reconstituting a wort and this is quite normal. Cold break may not occur here because by the time the wort is cool enough for the precipitation to occur, the malt extract is too dense and the proteins remain in solution until you reconstitute the wort.

The partial vacuum and centrifugal evaporation process allows us to evaporate at very low temperatures resulting in malt extract products light in colour with no caramelisation of the sugars which avoids the toffee like tones sometimes found in other extracts. Some hop esters are lost during the evaporation process, however the losses are much lower using this method than high temperature evaporation. The issue of boiling extracts dates back to the early days of home brewing when some of the extracts available were poor quality food grade extracts with high protein content. This is no longer an issue, and hasn't been an issue for Coopers beer kits from the beginning in 1984 due to the previous explained production process.

However in places such as the US they still (due to the use of bulk product and due to certain home brewing books recommending to do so) insist on boiling all extracts - hopped or unhopped, canned or bulk, when there is no logical reason to do so if you are using one of the well known branded products. By boiling the hopped malt extract you are driving off these volatiles and reducing the flavour and aroma of the beer. Also the boiling process will significantly darken the colour of the extract (after we have specifically produced the extract in the can to a colour level that is correct for the style of beer), which may not be as great a concern when making dark beer styles however it is the last thing you want to do when producing a lighter beer style such as lager or pilsener.

Cheers, Frank.

Frank Akers
Customer Service
Coopers Brewery
461 South Road
Regency Park
SA 5010

**Emphasis in quote added by me***

No need to boil the kit since they've already done it in order to achieve the hot break!

Cheers,
TL

[warra48]

No need to boil the kit since they've already done it in order to achieve the hot break!

Cheers, TL

And presumably the same holds true for their unhopped liquid malt extract cans?

[Tipsy]

As for the kit "twang", I must confess that I only found that issue rearing its ugly head by authoritative ex-kit / now all grain brewers who would brazenly suggest that a kit could never taste as good as an all grain beer - which is not only wrong but offensive to every excellent extract and kit based beer made today! Rather than blaming the kit, perhaps some thought should be given to the lack of fresh ingredients - including hops - and the presence of dextrose in many kit brew recipes?
Cheers,
TL

I've got to say that I'm a believer in "extract twang".
I just haven't made a lager from a kit as clean tasting as AG.
My methods are the same in relation to pitching cool and keeping temps stable with a fridge, but there is always a bit of that taste in them.

Don't get me wrong they are ok beers, just not great.

But ales...thats another story

[chris.]

Good work TL.

And presumably the same holds true for their unhopped liquid malt extract cans?

I would assume yes. But I have made wrong assumptions in the past

I've got to say that I'm a believer in "extract twang".
I just haven't made a lager from a kit as clean tasting as AG.
My methods are the same in relation to pitching cool and keeping temps stable with a fridge, but there is always a bit of that taste in them.

Don't get me wrong they are ok beers, just not great.

I agree with you there Tipsy. The Craftbrewer radio episode I mentioned earlier is worth a listen in relation to the "twang".

[Trough Lolly]

Good work TL.

And presumably the same holds true for their unhopped liquid malt extract cans?

I would assume yes. But I have made wrong assumptions in the past

I'd bet on it too! I doubt they'd have a separate production line for unhopped malt extract. They'd just make a $hitload of malt extract and send some to the unhopped canning device, some to the brew kit section and the vast majority of the malt extract to the bulk ingredients (for cakes and confectionary) storage facility. We are only bit users of the overall malt extract that is made in Australia...

Cheers,
TL

[gibbocore]

I read once in the ingrediants of a Black rock can that said it contained hop extract. Is that isohop?

[Trough Lolly]

Yep...

Cheers,
TL

[chris.]

I thought Isohop & CO2 hop extract were 2 different things? Isohop is Iso-Alpha Acids derived from Hop Extract. The extract is a thick paste, which also contains aroma compounds, whereas the Isohop is purely for bittering.