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Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 9:51 am
by Trough Lolly
Crowash wrote:((snip))I can't see any reason why chilling water beforehand would make you more exposed to infection.
Cheers
Ash
1. Bacterial levels will increase over time in the water - and possibly overpower the yeast once it's innoculated into the wort;
2. You're using an extra container which increases the risk of infection instead of simply filling the fermenter straight from the tap on brewday;
3. As stated before, the fridge is a massive source of bacteria that would be only too happy to live in the water vessel.
Solution? Minimise bacterial infection risk by using PRE-BOILED and chilled water...not just chilled water from the tap. Most kit beer instructions skip this and the logic they use is that the water borne bacteria will be overpowered by the rapidly multiplying yeast cells when you ferment your brew at 26+ degrees C...
Cheers,
TL
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 10:02 am
by rwh
One advantage of using water straight out of the tap (ie non-boiled) is that it will be higher in oxygen. If you use pre-boiled water then you will need to think about adding oxygen (or a minuscule amount of olive oil?
) some other way.
There are several disadvantages, including higher (but still very low) bacterial load, possibility of chlorine being present, etc. It's really up to you, but I live in Melbourne, a city with very good water, and so I don't generally bother to boil if I'm doing kits. My real (AG) beers get their boil as a matter of course.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 10:05 am
by Trough Lolly
Two good points, well made, re water quality and oxygenation...especially when you need oxygen to restore dry yeast. Of course, you don't need oxygen when you repitch or use viable slurry from a recent brew.
Cheers,
TL
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 10:17 am
by ryan
Crowash wrote:Hey Warra,
I'm trying to make the process quicker not slower
So won't be switching to AG anytime soon.
I can't see any reason why chilling water beforehand would make you more exposed to infection.
Cheers
Ash
Y`know, I have to agree with that. I use nothing but tap water chilled from the fridge, and containers of ice {with lids} from our freezer to bring wort temp. down quick and I`ve only lost 1 beer in 17 years, and that was thru skimming.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 1:52 pm
by scblack
Trough Lolly wrote:
Without wanting to invoke the "no chill" debate on this thread, you need to be mindful of a few things when you leave the wort for 36 hours before pitching yeast...
Obviously the risk of infection skyrockets as you pass 24 hours - you need to ensure that you have a good seal on the fermenter and if all's well, then your hygiene protocols are obviously keeping things in order.
The other two issues are DMS and your fridge.
DMS occurs in wort when it's left to cool off without chilling being performed - your wort produces DMS compounds whenever it's above 80C and that's why good brewing manuals recommend you boil your wort uncovered, to allow the DMS to leave the wort along with the steam vapour. At flameout, the brew is obviously very hot and making DMS and it will escape (along with hop aroma compounds, which is why I like to make an aroma addition when the wort is below 70C). An experienced palate will pick up DMS as a vegetable / cabbage / cooked corn flavour and although it's not a showstopper, it can give the beer a prematurely aged flavour...
Re the fridge, you need to be wary of not sending your fridge to an early grave if you shove a container of hot wort in the fridge each time you do a brew - that will give any fridge a hefty workout as you make it do the work instead of an immersion or counter-flow wort chiller.
Cheers,
TL
TL, 20 brews without problems so I guess my hygiene is going fine.
DMS is something I will take note of by boiling with no lids - to date I am boiling with lids as it makes a quicker boil generally. I'll try no lids in future.
Fridge - I am cooling wort down to 30celsius before it goes in fridge, so that should not be overtaxing the fridge. Getting wort from 30 to 18 (or 11) is not too much.
Next brew I will cool the wort in the laundry tub with cool water and ice blocks so I can put the wort in the fridge without having to leave it in garage overnight.
Cheers,
SC.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 1:59 pm
by TommyH
An Interesting thread.
On a few occasions, on very hot days, I have resorted to filling about 5 or 6 1.5l sanatised pet bottles with water then chilling them rapidly in the freezer for about 2 hours.
Does anyone see a problem with this?
Cheers
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 3:44 pm
by 501
I don't understand how fridging can present a direct contact exposure
to the water ?
It would seem hard for bacteria to permeate the plastic. ?
unless your not using properly sealed water container(s) in the fridge.
Of course their may be pathogens on the outside of the container and
you could pour them in....
Definitely wash and or sanitise the outside of the container(s)
after removing from fridge / freezer.
I do both and incessantly spray that peroxide stuff around anyways.
case e.g. You pull your hop / yeast / etc container out of the fridge
and don't sanitise your hands afterwards;
and or sit the container near the other equipment.
This would seem to present a similar risk ?
---------
cheers
---------
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 4:13 pm
by Trough Lolly
ryan wrote:
Y`know, I have to agree with that. I use nothing but tap water chilled from the fridge, and containers of ice {with lids} from our freezer to bring wort temp. down quick and I`ve only lost 1 beer in 17 years, and that was thru skimming.
Can't disagree - the key there is that for most non-AG brewers who have good water quality, the bacterial risk is quite low - but still there. In all the years I brewed kits, I never boiled anything and tap water was all the go. The fact that I used the Coopers kit yeast which had a short lag also helped keep the bacteria at bay.
scblack wrote:
Fridge - I am cooling wort down to 30celsius before it goes in fridge, so that should not be overtaxing the fridge. Getting wort from 30 to 18 (or 11) is not too much.
Next brew I will cool the wort in the laundry tub with cool water and ice blocks so I can put the wort in the fridge without having to leave it in garage overnight.
No probs - 30C is not a major problem for the fridge although it is a substantial volume of liquid to put in a non-commercial fridge. The laundry tub method sounds good...
Cheers,
TL
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 4:48 pm
by ryan
TommyH wrote:An Interesting thread.
On a few occasions, on very hot days, I have resorted to filling about 5 or 6 1.5l sanatised pet bottles with water then chilling them rapidly in the freezer for about 2 hours.
Does anyone see a problem with this?
Cheers
Well that could be a double edged sword- I add ice blocks to the boiled wort to get it down to about 26* then add chilled water to get 22* or close before pitching.
What I`m saying is, you wouldn`t want to be pouring and splashing chilled water or any water for that matter, into wort that`s just been boiled. Allow it to cool first.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 5:45 pm
by TommyH
Ryan said
Well that could be a double edged sword- I add ice blocks to the boiled wort to get it down to about 26* then add chilled water to get 22* or close before pitching.
What I`m saying is, you wouldn`t want to be pouring and splashing chilled water or any water for that matter, into wort that`s just been boiled. Allow it to cool first.
Not sure I understand. I thought the idea was to cool the wort and aerate it as much as possible.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 6:25 pm
by ryan
You can aerate the bejasus out of it if you want to- ONCE IT`S AROUND 26* OR LOWER.
You can{allegedly} risk oxidation aerating a high temp. wort.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 6:48 pm
by TommyH
ryan wrote:You can aerate the bejasus out of it if you want to- ONCE IT`S AROUND 26* OR LOWER.
You can{allegedly} risk oxidation aerating a high temp. wort.
Really? Not disputing you, just never heard that before. But I am a novice
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 7:12 pm
by 501
Yeah froth it right up......
More advanced people use oxygen cylinders, aquarium style
stones, etc.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 8:02 pm
by TommyH
But why under 26C?
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 8:21 pm
by Chris
http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... php?t=7161
Read this post. I'm sure it'll make you regret asking.
Posted: Friday Nov 23, 2007 9:42 pm
by Tipsy
Trough Lolly wrote: At flameout, the brew is obviously very hot and making DMS and it will escape (along with hop aroma compounds, which is why I like to make an aroma addition when the wort is below 70C).
Sorry for the OT, do you do this instead of dry hopping?
Edit: re-read sober and know exactly what you mean *Pure Blonde moment*
Posted: Saturday Nov 24, 2007 6:40 am
by TommyH
Chris wrote:http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7161
Read this post. I'm sure it'll make you regret asking.
Heavy reading for a Saturday morning.
But having read it I am still confused. There didn't seem to be any definitive conclusion.
Posted: Saturday Nov 24, 2007 7:24 am
by ryan
Well, there is-as long as you assume Chris knows more than John Palmer
But don`t do that, whatever you do
Posted: Saturday Nov 24, 2007 7:26 am
by TommyH
Posted: Saturday Nov 24, 2007 7:37 am
by Chris
No, I just have a different opinion than Palmer on this (and several other) points. Palmer doesn't know everything- if he did, then explain to me why does he keep changing his opinion about various things? And his extensive knowledge of organic chemistry? Hmmm, lots of that when studying metallurgy...