Hefeweizen

[Trough Lolly]

It may be a terminology thing, but what you describe is essentially what I do. I agree that the ideal time for a decoction is 20 mins into the mash, but it is possible to do the mashout step via a decoction. You're quite right in that if you specifically want to decoct a mashout, then yes, a thin pull with plenty of wort is a good move - I was probably using too few words to get my thoughts down!

Cheers,
TL

[Rob C]

I Have been messing around with beersmith for the first time trying to come up with a partial recipe and this is what i have came up with.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.50 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 40.0 %
1.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.7 %
1.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.7 %
0.25 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.7 %
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 8.0 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (20 min) Hops 4.8 IBU
20.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat
Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.3 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.6 %
Bitterness: 14.4 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 6.0 SRM Color: Color

Does this seem ok?

Cheers
Rob

[timmy]

I went with 1.5kg of pilsner and wheat malt and only added the bittering hops. Came out fantastic IMO.

[Trough Lolly]

Hi Rob,
The recipe looks fine except for the bittering values - I'm not a beersmith user but you must be doing a very concentrated boil if 20g of 8.5% Hallertauer will only yield 8 IBU's after an hour!!

Assuming your calculations and settings are correct, I would either halve the amount of malt in the boil or increase the boil volume...

Cheers,
TL

[Rob C]

Hi Trough Lolly Had fiddle and fixed it. I will add the LWME after the boil and just boil the hops with the sweet liquor from the mini mash.

Does this seem better.

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.50 kg Wheat Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 40.0 %
1.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.7 %
1.00 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 26.7 %
0.25 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 6.7 %
10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 7.8 IBU
10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (20 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
10.00 gm Hallertauer, New Zealand [8.50%] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.3 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.6 %
Bitterness: 14.1 IBU Calories: 90 cal/l
Est Color: 6.0 SRM Color: Color

[Trough Lolly]

Hi Rob,
Looks good - and I would toss in the wheat extract in when you have 5 mins to go in the boil, along with the final aroma hop addition of Hallertauer...

Cheers,
TL

[Rob C]

Thanks again TL will be putting this down today. Lets hope all turns out well.

Cheers
Rob

[Trough Lolly]

No probs - just make sure that you stir well to avoid scorching the malt extract on the bottom of the hot boiler...

Cheers,
TL

[Stubbie]

For anyone interested in what I got for WB-06 @ 17C fermentation temp:

Very tart indeed out of the fermenter. First taste of a carbonated beer: heaps of clove, only some bubblegum, nil banana and the tartness has subsided heaps. Very crisp, dryish and dare I say it, almost lager-ish. Not quite true to style for a hefe but I have to admit the result suits me fine for a warm weather beer. Fantastic for washing down a feed of fresh fish and salad. Won't last long at all. I reckon the clove note is tapering off by the day - even more reason to drink it fast

But I think next time I'll go Wyeast 3068.

Cheers.

[gibbocore]

cheers guys.

I might give the decoction a miss in the oktoberfest seeing as i have used a crap load of melanoiden. Its already mixed in the recipe so i'll have a very malty beer, but within the style.


I will use a decoction with the ale i'm doing though as it has 1kg of munich and might give it a nice profile.

So when you say "pull 2 liters of grist" do you mean that after i have done my "mash in" and let it rest for 20min at 63 degrees, i then get a jug and remove 2 liters of water and grain mix(grist) and boil it for 20 min while the mash continues in my esky. then return it and leave it for a further 20 then go about my mash out/sparge proceedures? Sorry to be a noob, but i've only mastered simple mashes.

[Trough Lolly]

Essentially, you can decoct the mash at any time - it used to be the only way to raise mash temps in wooden mashtuns. Brewers routinely did triple decoctions to give the mash a beta-glucan rest to reduce gumminess in the mash at around 40C, followed by a protein rest at around 53C, then a third decoction to lift the mash into the saccharification range at around 66C. Having a weldless thermometer in the rubbermaid mashtun is a god send!

This table gives you an idea of what's happening at the respective temps:



Kev's process is fine - get the mash up to starch conversion temps, let it rest for 20 mins, pull a third of the grist and boil for 20 mins then return that to the mashtun - obviously that will raise the mash temperture into the "Mashout" temperature range and in another 20 mins you can commence the sparge. The point that Kev also made, which is quite correct, is that conventional wisdom suggests that a decoction done specifically to raise the mash temp to a "mashout" step is to pull a "thin" decoction, ie, plenty of mash liquor and not so much grains from the mashtun.

I have other methods for raising the mash temp - eg, adding boiling water or using the immersion element. So for me, the main reason I do a decoction is to get more melanoidins giving a richer malty flavour profile and slightly darker colour to the final product. Decoctions are very handy and don't dilute the mash...

So if I'm in the mood to decoct, I'll dough-in a stiff mash at 53C at 2L of water per kilo of grains, to give it a protein rest for around 20 mins then pull a thick decoction (usually less than a third of the mash goes into my stovetop pot), boil for 10-20 mins, stirring well, to caramalise sugars (yes, enzymes do convert at 50C), get more melanoidins from the pull and thin the decoction by gelatinising the decoction. I add the boiling decoction and no more than 300ml of boiling water per kilo of grains to lift the mash into the 66C zone and keep the mash thickness / consistency "in the zone" and let the mash rest for an hour at 66C, skip the mashout step and start the sparge when the 1 hour 20 minute mash or glass of beer I'm enjoying has finished!

Cheers,
TL

[gibbocore]

Aweosme. Thanks TL.

I'm going to give your method a burl in a weeks time.

to simplify, is this correct;

1. Mash in, strike temp of 53 degrees
2. rest for 20 mins
3. remove 1/3 of the grist (grain prorridge) and boil for 20 mins, stirring
3.return to the mash and add boiling water to get it up to 65 degrees
4. Mash for one hour
5. Mash out? (i tend to mash out with 15L of 80degrees water, run off, then sparge with 10L of 90 degrees water)

Thanks in advance.

[Trough Lolly]

When you mash-in, make sure the water is a few degrees above 53C as you'll lose heat when you add the water to the room temperature mashtun and add the room temperature grains. I add 60C water and it ends up at 53C after I've added the grains - your brew setup may vary but as long as it's around 50 to 55C, you'll be fine.

If you take out 1/3 of the mash and boil that, you probably don't need boiling water. I don't pull a full third of the mash out to decoct as I'm only after some additional melanoidins with what I take - so with practice you'll pull an amount that you're happy to boil and doesn't overshoot the 66C mark when you return it to the mashtun. When I first did this, I pulled and boiled some of the mash and after returning it to the mashtun I ended up at 60C so I needed to add some boiling water (or do another pull!) to get up to 66C...Apologies if this appears complicated but you need to keep a close eye on your mash temps and avoid over diluting the mash with boiling water additions - once you have the process right, a decoction becomes a very easy part of the mash routine and as I said before, we don't have to decoct all the time, thanks to the well modified malts we used, but it's good fun and adds real body to bocks, alts, anything really!

Your mashout step is fine - have a go and let us know how it turns out.

Cheers,
TL

[gibbocore]

Awesome, you're a legend!

i'll let you know how it turns out. I'm drinking kegged all grains within 2 weeks of pitching nowadays.

[gibbocore]

ok, so my first decoction mash went 'ok', i battled a bit with hitting 66 degrees after decocting, and ended up with a fairly thin mash wich i think acounted for my 60% efficiancy. Also, just to confirm, when decocting do i take just the hot liqour or liquour and grist?

basically it took about 4 decoctions before i got my temp right and an additional 3 liters of cold water.

smells and tastes nice but i only got 15L at 1044.

I'll have another shot at it this weekend i think.

[Kevnlis]

I always decoct 1/3 of the thickest grist (no standing water at the surface of the pot). It is usually pretty bang on! Make sure you get a good boil and hold it for 20 min or so before you pour it back in, that may help.

[gibbocore]

so it looks like porridge?

[Kevnlis]

so it looks like porridge?

Sort of, yeah. I have heard it explained that you should use a strainer for your first decoction. and put just the solids in the stockpot until you have the volume you need, then add enough water to make it fluid, but not so that there is actually free water in the grist IYKWIM?

[gibbocore]

so it looks like porridge?

Sort of, yeah. I have heard it explained that you should use a strainer for your first decoction. and put just the solids in the stockpot until you have the volume you need, then add enough water to make it fluid, but not so that there is actually free water in the grist IYKWIM?

yeah kinda.

would the water added be from the tap or from the mash?

[Kevnlis]

Yes sorry, use liquor from the mash to water the grain down. Also keep in mind that as the mash warms it will become more fluid. So just because it is very stiff at the start does not mean it will end that way, as is the case in most things...