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Sorry if I offended you TL. I was pointing out to James that the Caramunich was not necessary and that he could drop it and keep the choc, or use dark crystal if he liked and be within the guidelines of style. I thought maybe his reason for not wanting to use it was availability or stock issues, something like that. He seemed to want to know alternatives to using the Caramunich and I helped with that.

I myself am not much for the guidelines, but I do reference them to get an idea of where I am at in relation to commercial examples and what I hope are results of skilled brewers research.

My original recipe was actually not at all dissimilar to the one you posted there, which is why I suggested it earlier in this post.

The reason I scaled back the Munich in my recipe was to get away from it tasting like a weak Bock. Not that I do not enjoy a good Bock, it is in fact one of my favourite styles (simply because Munich is my favourite malt), I just wanted to be more able to discern between the two

I guess going by style your recipe is probably more like an Alt with the Munich scaled back a bit?

i dont have any dramas getting the grain... i just wanted to see whether dropping the caramunich would result in a reduction in the authentic maltiness. i want a beer similar to the weihenstephaner festbier which is not amber at all, but at the same time, i want to produce something that'll have more pep.... something beyond a lager... something festy....

Kevnlis wrote:Sorry if I offended you TL. I was pointing out to James that the Caramunich was not necessary and that he could drop it and keep the choc, or use dark crystal if he liked and be within the guidelines of style. I thought maybe his reason for not wanting to use it was availability or stock issues, something like that. He seemed to want to know alternatives to using the Caramunich and I helped with that.

I myself am not much for the guidelines, but I do reference them to get an idea of where I am at in relation to commercial examples and what I hope are results of skilled brewers research.

My original recipe was actually not at all dissimilar to the one you posted there, which is why I suggested it earlier in this post.

The reason I scaled back the Munich in my recipe was to get away from it tasting like a weak Bock. Not that I do not enjoy a good Bock, it is in fact one of my favourite styles (simply because Munich is my favourite malt), I just wanted to be more able to discern between the two

I guess going by style your recipe is probably more like an Alt with the Munich scaled back a bit?

No offence taken, Kev - and crystal malt will be fine as an alternate...but I cannot understand why anyone would specifically cut down on cara malts such as caramunich I or II, carahell or caraaroma in favour of a more generic crystal malt? I'll happily stand corrected, but I understand that caramunich is sourced from munich malt whereas crystal malt may not be, even though they're all barley malt. I've found that whilst crystal malt does a good job at providing some colour and caramel notes to the beer, the caramunich malt provides a more fuller, robust, toasted grains flavour especially when you use the darker caramunich grains which also provide greater body through unfermentable dextrins present in the dark caramunich malt. It's not a huge difference but to me, it's subtle enough to be better, especially when you taste the real thing from Europe. It's the same logic that has me using Roasted Barley and Carafa instead of black/patent malt.

The BJCP guidelines are, as you suggest, a good reference point to help brewers out if, for example, they've never enjoyed an Oktoberfest but want to make one. Where I get shirty is when the guidelines suddenly adopt a life of their own and demand your slavish adherance - which I know you aren't suggesting! It's one of a couple of reasons why I rarely enter brew comps nowadays...

You make a good point regarding the bock - and FWIW I consider Bock's to be close cousins of the Oktoberfest but they are stronger, darker and an all round bigger beer. If you have a decent bottlo nearby, do a side by side tasting of a Paulaner Oktoberfest:



alongside a bottle of Ayinger Bock (especially the winter bock if you can find it!):



In a funny kinda way they're like comparing an IPA to an APA!

Cheers,
TL

Good lord TL....

You shouldnt show pictures like that so close to a long weekend... i have to try to save my money...

James L wrote:Good lord TL....

You shouldnt show pictures like that so close to a long weekend... i have to try to save my money...

You shouldn't be allowed to show those kind of pictures during work hours

Actually TL I have had quite a few good examples of German beers back in the states.

My local pub in Madison was called the Essen Haus and it is where I fell in love with beer!

Over 200 various import bottled beers, and 16 imported German beers on tap

The list of beers on tap is as follows:

Bitburger Pilsner
D.A.B.
Franziskaner Dunkel Weiss
Franziskaner Weiss
Hacker Pschorr Edelhell
Hoff Brau Oktoberfest
Hoff Brau Lager
Hacker Pschorr Oktoberfest
Lowenbrau
Paulaner Lager
Paulaner Salvator
Paulaner Weiss
Spaten Lager
Spaten Optimator
Spaten Oktoberfest
Warsteiner Pilsner

They also do real Bratwurst with fresh sauerkraut and giant soft pretzels with real mustards and horseradish. Not to mention having live oompa bands every night and a great atmosphere just a few blocks from a college campus which has 20,000+ students each year. Need less to say, it is a place you could easily fall in love with!

James L wrote:i dont have any dramas getting the grain... i just wanted to see whether dropping the caramunich would result in a reduction in the authentic maltiness. i want a beer similar to the weihenstephaner festbier which is not amber at all, but at the same time, i want to produce something that'll have more pep.... something beyond a lager... something festy....

No probs James,
This pale festbier is a beauty - and quite commonly available in good bottle shops...



There would be very little dark grains here - carahell and caramunich I would be the go - or pale crystal if you must! A base of pils malt with Munich would be the go...And obviously it wouldn't be a Weihenstephaner without W34/70!! And that food hall / essen haus beerlist is excellent!

Cheers,
TL

This thread is making me wonder if I should be wearing a bib. All this drool on my keyboard can not be good for it!

I was planning to go home in April but it looks like I may not make it until November now. I think I had forgotten just how great that place was because I am seriously regretting doing that ATM

Hang on a minute! Where's the Erdinger Pikantus?!

Cheers,
TL

Trough Lolly wrote:Hang on a minute! Where's the Erdinger Pikantus?!

Cheers,
TL

I am with you there. Believe it or not I actually had a bottle of this last night and it was an excellent value! I think it cost me $4 or so for 500ml of an excellent beer which was actually nothing like I expected, it was better!

I started a spag bol dinner with a Bo-Pils, then had an Oktoberfest, and made a caramel self saucing pudding with pecans in it and enjoyed that with the Pikantus.

I made a Weizenbock a few months back, but I do not remember it tasting like this did. If you have a recipe I would be very interested TL!

And let's not forget Trough Lolly's excellent AG recipe for a Pikantus clone.

I've brewed it and it's a beauty. I'm still enjoying it hugely.

Link: http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... ler#p63635

warra48 wrote:And let's not forget Trough Lolly's excellent AG recipe for a Pikantus clone.

I've brewed it and it's a beauty. I'm still enjoying it hugely.

Link: http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... ler#p63635

How did I miss that one?!?!

Thanks for the help warra, I have put it in my recipe list so I don't miss it again

I'm just about to go and get a carton of that Festbier now.... its only 60 bucks a carton at IBS....

thats what i'm trying to emulate.... i have bought some bavarian lager yeast for that.... it was the grain combo i wasnt sure about....

What flavours would carahell bring into the beer? I've heard of it, but never used it... and what sort of EBC or SRMs would Festbier be?

Carahell is a nice pale caramalt that Weyermann produces at about 11 Lovibond (20-30 EBC). It's a nice alternative and, IMHO, a superior substitute to pale crystal malt in an Oktoberfest. Mixed in with the Pils malt it takes the colour away from straw pale / blondbier (like a Dortmunder) and adds a faint golden amberish tinge to it. Flavour profile is sweet caramel.

Use it sparingly if you want the festbier to remain pale - 250g max in a 23L batch...

Cheers
TL