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Finnagann wrote:Could it have something to do with your priming sugar/process? Did you notice the fairy floss flavour before bottling?

Actually I did Finnagann. Same with the earlier one. The Coopers guy suggested it could be unfermented priming sugar too, and I thought he was onto something, but then I remembered that as soon as I took the last reading I tasted it and said to my OH "Oh no, here we go again!". Anna

Anna wrote:

Finnagann wrote:Could it have something to do with your priming sugar/process? Did you notice the fairy floss flavour before bottling?

Actually I did Finnagann. Same with the earlier one. The Coopers guy suggested it could be unfermented priming sugar too, and I thought he was onto something, but then I remembered that as soon as I took the last reading I tasted it and said to my OH "Oh no, here we go again!". Anna

Man that's weird... after so many brews. Do you have any other brewers in the area? Maybe if someone could hang through your process they might catch something that you've missed. Maybe there's even something you've done from the start and got a way with for a while? idk... I'll keep thinkin on it.

Anna wrote:Here's the response I just received from the Cooper's guy:
Bottles don’t really need to be sanitised, they only need to look clean and bright.[/i]

Totally!!!
I have not used sanitiser on my bottles for several years, but they do get two cold rinses straight after pouring, lid replaced so they are clean when stored, then all that is needed prior to re-filling is a good blast of screaming hot water. If I'm given any dirty ones, or if I get slack & don't get them clean soon after pouring, They go in the bin!!

Anna,
I always found that Coopers Kit yeast worked best at 24 deg,(in the middle of it's recomended range) & I don't care what any one else says as long as it is kept constant, this comes from doing Coopers Lagers & then Pale ales regularily for about 18yrs until I went AG.

Also Check the dates on the Kit, it should still have 2 years before its "Use by Date". Older kits will give you a darker coloured beer than a fresh one & taste strong, malty, sour & horrible (not sure if this is the burnt taste you describe)

Using Clingwrap instead of a lid as Wrighty sugested gives you a view on your beer so that you can see exactly how the yeast is working compared to past brews, (you will never go back!)

Going AG gave me perfect consistancy, maybe not because of the ingredients but I think that doing a full boil is where the consistancy comes from.... a nice clean wort every time.....worth a thought!

Cheers, Mick.

Agree re the bottles.

That much chlorine in tap water its not funny.

Never had an infection from a bottle, fermenters well thats a different story.

Just think of all that time saved not sanitizing bottles! Still don't know whether I'm game or not...

Mick, I'm beginning to agree with you re the temperature of the kit yeasts. When I check back over my notes, this problem only began when I thought I'd "solved" the temperature "problem" and managed to keep temps down under 22 deg. I opened another Draught last night which had been fermented around 18-20 deg. and again, tastes like shite!! No problems so far with US-05 or S04, just the kit yeasts. I did notice with one recently that the 'best before' date on the can itself was OK, but the yeast packet had already expired! And the trouble is you can't take the lid off in the supermarket to check the yeast date. I'm pretty sure the problem is (like Warra suggested earlier) that the sugars are not fully fermenting out - and that's certainly what it tastes like! The hydrometer is showing consistent readings over a couple of days because the yeast is worn out, when in actual fact there is still unfermented fermentables left. But why no bottle bombs? They are certainly carbonating OK, so there must be some life left in the yeast.

I guess I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and spend some money on better yeasts (like everyone has been telling me to!). Anna

Don't forget too about the Cooper's yeast packs being only half the ammount to begin with! I know others have said that the Cooper's yeast should handle things okay and I agree especially when I've had standard Coopers Lagers climbing out of the airlock! However, in my experience I did exactly as you, started adding more malt and then stuck the fermentor in a pail of water between 18 and 22C and ended up with dark sweat brews. Whilst I keg, I always have those three or so bottles and they carbed nicely just not nice beer-no bottle bombs which confused me further.

The Cooper's yeast did not want to play the game when added to higher gravity beer at cooler temps. Maybe I should have made a starter. Maybe I should have let the ferment start at room temp and then drop it in the pail after vigourous fermentation had started started. In the end I got a taste for Little Creatures style Pale Ales and preferred the taste of US05.

For me personally, I have been using Craftbrewer's generic twin packs of US05 and have found that this has addressed the problem. I do believe that I was making mistakes elsewhere as with hop/malt balance, but it was easy to eliminate these by using beersmith and using tried and proven recipes from this forum.

At the front counter of where ever you buy your kits, rip the lid open and check the date, return on the spot if you wish.

I too am a non chemical, bottler rinser. But on the day of bottleling, I usually add a cup of boiling water to each tallie(yes the old solid ones) let it sit for 30 secs and then invert holding with an oven mit and swirl the bottle so that the boiling water touches all parts of the bottle. I then hold them up to the light and check them. Every six months or so I give them a good scrub as I fine they get a bit of beer stone build up.

Keep us posted, I'm intrigued to see where you'll find your sollution. Sorry if this post has been a bit repetitive .

Hirns.

Yep! I reckon we've hit the nail on the head Hirns. It certainly all points that way (using more malt and lower temps with kit yeast). I'm going to put a Coopers Draught on this weekend with only BE2 and kit yeast (after checking the date) and ferment at room temp. (currently around 24 deg.) just to see what happens. It will be a relief not to have to change all the frozen drink bottles twice a day! Anna

Anna - you can re-use dry yeasts.

The stuff on the bottom of the fermenter is largely yeast, more so for kit brewers whereas AG brewers will have cold break proteins etc but i digress.

When you empty the fermenter (either to rack or bottle) you can re-use that yeast. 1 cup of slurry is approximately the right amount for the next batch. The whole yeastcake is way overpitching and whilst a lot of people do it and will tell you its fine, its overpitching.

So the next time you use US05 or S04 take a sanitised cup and scoop out some of the yeast and pitch that into your next batch. One re-use halves the cost of the yeast per batch. When i use liquid yeast i pay $12-13 a pack. I get at least 6 beers out of that.

As long as your HBS has a decent turnover of the yeast then you can be assured its in better condition and is a better product than kit yeast. Use the kit yeast as nutrient for the good stuff by boiling it for 5 mins.

On the topic of not sanitising bottles. With all due respect to those who say they don't, you should. Do you only sanitise the fermenter and not the lid or the o-ring. Of course not.

Anna - I would encourage you to ignore all the learned wisdom from those who have 'been doing it for x years and never had an infection'. To me its like eating your food off a clean plate but using dirty cutlery. It's a half arsed approach to sanitation (yes, I realise my example was for cleaning not sanitation but its a similar concept).

It's not that much effort to add some no-rinse sanitiser to each bottle, put a lid on and give it a shake. Leave for a minute or 2 and empty. Done. Sanitised.

No rinse sanitisers are cheaper to use in the long run and are much more convenient that those that require rinsing. I make up 10L of mine at a time and leave it sitting in a cube. It doesn't go off as it is acid based (orthophosphoric acid) and can be re-used. I bought 2.5L of 85% acid more than 2 years ago. I have used less than 500mL.

Not sanitising bottles and lids is lazy. I really don't care if it has worked for some people for 50 years. It's still lazy. Advising new brewers to do the same is reckless and it shits me. Keep your bad habits to yourselves please.

You can never be too anal about sanitation. Ever.

Rant over, caffeine slowing working its way into my system. I'll chill now

Cheers
DrSmurto

Hey Doc, you're back! (You always make me smile ).

Yes, I have taken your good advice and detailed instructions a few weeks ago and re-used some US-05 which I had used for a JSGA clone (which was wonderful by the way!). I put a dark ale over it, but I'm wondering what it will turn out like because I didn't take into account that the JSGA was made with wheat malt and the DA wasn't!

I think I'll keep sanitising the bottles, as it's not that much trouble - I have a cute little "bottle rinser" and a bottle tree, which makes life easier. Anna

Being carefull not to create a further problem rather than a sollution, I would suggest that you "Bomb" your fermentor well beforehand . Every so often to ensure that there are no problems with infections from the fermentor I use a strong sollution of Brigalow sterilizer, sodium metabisulphite and soak everything in that overnight and pull the tap out and soak it with valve open afterwards. It is nasty stuff and you may choose to use something different and that is fine. My point is to I use a different sterilizer to what you normally use in case some nasties have built up some form of resistance. Do this well beforehand to enable time to soak the fermentor overnight again with your standard unsented bleach solution and then still enable time for the fermentor to air dry. Rince very well with boiling water sever times before use.

Is the tap one that can be pulled apart for cleaning or is it a standard fermentor tap with the internals stained with trapped old wort? The lid o ring?

As I said to begin with I give this advice with caution and others may shoot me down. You want to eliminate the possibilty of even a mild infection that is retarding your yeast. Secondly, we certainly don't want to add additional off flavours with chemical residue.

In essense I'm trying to help you eliminate by ensuring that the basics have also been covered, remember how pedanic we were with sterilisation with our first brews! Now we're talking about not steriling bottles with our next breath .

The final problem is that your brew may turn out cured, but then we're not sure how we solved the puzzle, temp, yeast, hygeine or praying to the beergods And this last point is one of the reasons I'm so interested cause I solved the(my) problem but I'm not 100% on how I did it!

Hmm - food for thought Hirns. I must say I have been entrusting the fermenter washing and sterilising to OH lately, but maybe I should take over that job too (never could trust a man!). I think he is pretty pedantic though (read "germophobe"), and I have taught him to pull everything apart, including the O rings from lid and the taps. Interesting point about the nasties becoming immune to bleach. I do have some sodium metabisulphite left over, so I'll give it a go just to make sure. Anna

I do like to give my fermenters a good soak every now and then. Strong bleach solution and leave it for weeks or until its needed again. Rinse until you can't smell bleach.

Other times i soak them in a sodium percarbonate solution (napisan).

As mentioned, pull everything apart and clean.

If it's not clean, it can't be sanitised.

Don't worry about flavours from a previous batch coming through on the next one. It will make very little difference as its such a small percentage of the total volume. The general rule though is to go from light to darker beers, lower alcohol to higher. So a JSGA followed by a dark ale is perfectly fine.

I add wheat to my dark ales

Cheers
DrSmurto

p.s. Hirn - are you mixing chemicals? What is the active ingredient in the Brigalow steriliser? Be careful you aren't deactivating one or worse, creating a chemical reaction that may cause you problems.

Dr you must have posted that within seconds of mine.

Anna wrote:p.s. Hirn - are you mixing chemicals? What is the active ingredient in the Brigalow steriliser? Be careful you aren't deactivating one or worse, creating a chemical reaction that may cause you problems.

Sodium metabisulphite and no never mix, especially with bleach (as you would know). I have used Sodium metabisulphite for "bombing" by adding 2l of boiling water but I would not suggest it to others! I did this only to increase the speed of sterilization as I needed the fermentor immediately.

Cheers

Hirns

hirns wrote: I have used Sodium metabisulphite for "bombing" by adding 2l of boiling water but I would not suggest it to others! I did this only to increase the speed of sterilization as I needed the fermentor immediately.

I've done this, before. Have done it with PSR, too. Was bloody glad I'm not an asthmatic on both of those days!

Hence the term "bombing": The Second Battle of Ypres Now back to the topic

Anna - have you taken a gravity reading of the beer before you took it out of the fermenter? I can't help but think that you've got an underfermented brew.

One other question - are you absolutely certain that the kit yeast was an ale, not lager, yeast???

Cheers,
TL

Hi TL! The FG just before bottling was 1.014, and it's becoming pretty apparent that, yes, it was probably under-fermented. The Coopers kit yeasts are definitely ale yeasts according to the Coopers guy and, like he said, 1.014 is probably a few points higher than it should have been. I think the problem is either one or a combination of the following: Too much fermentables (1kg malt + 500 gm dex) for only one kit yeast (7 gm) to handle, out of date yeast or too cold a temp. for the ale yeast.

I've got 2 brews on at the moment: one Coopers Real Ale and one Draught - both made with kit yeast only and BE2. The Real Ale is fermenting away furiously, with lots of krausen, whilst the Draught bubbled for a couple of days only and then just "died", with not much krausen at all. Both were kept at the same temp. (20-22 deg.), so if the Draught turns out a dud again I'll know the yeast was crook and it was under-fermented. Will keep you posted. Anna

Taste the goop. Taste the BE2. Do either taste burned or sour? No. Then how would some of these residual ingredients make these flavours? All due respect to the much better brewers who keep suggesting that under attenuation is the issue - it is only an issue, not THE issue. There is something else here and only you can find it, Anna. If it comes up in either of these brews then it is head out of the sand and long, hard look in the mirror time.

Bum, I don't think I've ever said it tasted sour, just very sugary - that's why I'm pretty sure it's not infected. Both brews taste fine at the moment, but they've only been on for a week. I'll have another taste and test tonight. Anna

You need to rope in an experienced brewers to taste these beers for you to see if you can get more insight into the flavour and where it might be coming from.

Surely there are some willing brewers in your area?

Last resort - send me a bottle but its a costly exercise ($10 a longneck).