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if you syphon you don't have to prop up fermenter and can transfer with almost no waste provided you are careful.

Grab

I've been listening to The Brewing Network, and they have a regular on their show called Jamil Zainashef, who is apparently the most award winningest homebrewer in the states.

Now, he recons that racking is not needed.
If fact, he goes as far as " Leave your beer on the yeast cake for days after your FG has been reached " because the yeast will clean up a lot of the undesirable flavours produced during fermentation.

eg, if primary is complete in 4-6 days, bottle after 10.

He says that the leaving beer on the yeast cake can only be good - never bad.

So, has anyone actually recognised a positive effect from racking, or does everyone just rack because they heard from someone else that it is the thing to do?

Or, is this champion homebrewer full of shit?

strange that you should raise this now, i've just been going thru the Brew Log checking the results of taste tests.

It's funny, but i've had positive results from both methods.

admittedly, the unracked brews that were both clear and clean, (for want of a better description), had been in the bucket for 3 weeks plus.
i've currently got a Lager in @ 13deg C and i've been to-ing and fro-ing as to rack or not because i've done some taste tests of 3mth old beers of both and it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other....

one of the best beers i have made was fine until i racked and dry hopped, within 2 days i saw a white scum on the surface.

ok, the beer turned out great but if I don't have to take the risk of infection then that's all the better.

just my opinion,... i'm on the fence at the moment.

beers for bloody years and years
yg

good to hear.

I have a spare fermenter ( 3 all up- i can only seem to juggle 2 ales at once ) and I was hoping I didnt have to progress to racking, EVER.

It just sounds like more work, with more risk or infection.
And the only pay off that i can see as a definate is less sediment.

I just want to keep it simple, and I was kinda hoping some one would tell me what i wanted to hear...

Damn you man... I was sure racking to a secondary was needed until you piped up... now I am not so sure its worth the trouble...

Oh... Descisions descisions...

I think it depends on what your brewing. For example I just racked a Redback clone with K97 yeast because the yeast cake on the top never seems to go away and I cant see how far fermentation has gone. I always use glad wrap with a rubber band instead of the lid and have my hydrometer floating in the brew so I can see what the SG is in a glance. Therfore I let it ferment for about 5 days,rack at about 1020 and with the hydrometer in the brew and the beer beiing so clean and clear I can keep an eye on it till the SG is stable for a few days then I have the choice of kegging or CC for another week or so. On the other hand some ales and draughts ferment out nice and clean within 10 days and if I see that the beer is clearing well in primary and I expect that it will be done within 10 to 14 days I cant see the point of racking it.
Hillbilly

Siphoning seems a good idea, but I can't get my fermenters open without wrapping my legs around them, so I have to rack via the tap.

Now an important point about racking is that beer conditions faster in a fermenter (or keg) than in bottles (Palmer 8.2.3 - 8.5 ) and you should think of it more as secondary conditioning than secondary fermentation. Racking also reactivates the yeast and definately helps lower your FG.

I would like to point out that Jamil isn't leaving his beer on trub which I am in my primary fermentation. I need to rack it to get off the trub because after sitting on that stuff I have found some nasty flavours.

I am not to worried if it is just sitting on yeast cake though. If my beer is really slow in clearing, I will transfer it a third time or if it is having a good chew on the malto dextrins

I find some of Jamils approaches to yeast suspect but hey, who am I to argue. Its working for him and he is having fun doing it.

Finally from an award point of view, and by no means do I want to play down his acomplishments, but how many brewers have ever entered a competion? Additionally, from the sounds of things, they seem to be full of shite a bit like figure skating judges. For example. one of the comments made was "Its a really great beer but the colour is just off for style so I will give the award to shite beer that fits the style criteria"

The other one, they have some great toys in the States which I certainly will never see (jacketed conical fermentors in sliding door beer fridges). They get great hops, me I can't get Chinook or anyother strange breed of hops. I can't even get POR and we grow it here. Up until last year, the only yeast you could get was dried Coopers. Allbeit today I can get White Labs. My point being, if you can get your hands on the goods then you should be able to brew amazing beer that wins awards.

Just my opinion and sorry about the rant.

Dogger

Dogger Dan wrote:I would like to point out that Jamil isn't leaving his beer on trub which I am in my primary fermentation.

i don't get it ?

if Jamil isn't racking, how can he avoid having the beer on the trub ?

yardy

sounds like a gameplan, yardy. I hate wastage

Dogger Dan wrote:I would like to point out that Jamil isn't leaving his beer on trub which I am in my primary fermentation. I need to rack it to get off the trub because after sitting on that stuff I have found some nasty flavours.

I am not to worried if it is just sitting on yeast cake though. If my beer is really slow in clearing, I will transfer it a third time or if it is having a good chew on the malto dextrins

I find some of Jamils approaches to yeast suspect but hey, who am I to argue. Its working for him and he is having fun doing it.

I am inclined to agree with you DD..

After hearing Jamil say this (his comments were only in reference to ales btw) i thought i'd give it a go.. so far i've left atleast 4 brews on the trub to condition. 3 out of the 4 have picked up some off flavours/aroma's.. the one i bottled last night reaked of burnt rubber (which i believe is from autolisys?).
i think you may be able to get away with leaving your beer on the trub if you ferment in a fridge.. if you don't - forget it.

Yardy - Jamil's method of cooling is pretty effective from what i've heard & because of this he'd be getting a pretty good cold break. i suspect that he'd be leaving the majority of trub behind in his kettle.

Hey Dogger,

Have you ever thought of asking one of us Aussies to send some other yeast or hops, or because of shipping risks, anyone in the US to ship them up to you, or is there a customs concern?

but guys,

how long is it safe to leave in secondary if bottling ?

you may lose a lot of live yeast no ?

cheers
sol

501 wrote:but guys,

how long is it safe to leave in secondary if bottling ?

you may lose a lot of live yeast no ?

cheers
sol

i don't think the yeast packing it in before bottling is much of an issue.. in my experience the longer you leave it the clearer it will get & the longer it'll take to carb up.. but it gets there in the end.
having said that the longest i've left mine is only 2-3weeks

db wrote:

Dogger Dan wrote:I would like to point out that Jamil isn't leaving his beer on trub which I am in my primary fermentation. I need to rack it to get off the trub because after sitting on that stuff I have found some nasty flavours.

I am not to worried if it is just sitting on yeast cake though. If my beer is really slow in clearing, I will transfer it a third time or if it is having a good chew on the malto dextrins

I find some of Jamils approaches to yeast suspect but hey, who am I to argue. Its working for him and he is having fun doing it.

I am inclined to agree with you DD..

After hearing Jamil say this (his comments were only in reference to ales btw) i thought i'd give it a go.. so far i've left atleast 4 brews on the trub to condition. 3 out of the 4 have picked up some off flavours/aroma's.. the one i bottled last night reaked of burnt rubber (which i believe is from autolisys?).
i think you may be able to get away with leaving your beer on the trub if you ferment in a fridge.. if you don't - forget it.

Yardy - Jamil's method of cooling is pretty effective from what i've heard & because of this he'd be getting a pretty good cold break. i suspect that he'd be leaving the majority of trub behind in his kettle.

thanks db,

i get it now

yardy

Thanks db, Thats exactly it.

Jamil is leaving hops, hot break and cold break behind and has nice clean wort.

As far as importing Hops and Yeast etc, guys, I love what I do whith what I have but thank you for the offer.

As far as letting it sit, I have yeast culture 8 months old and it works just fine. I would like to point out, that even if your beer is clear, there is still sufficient yeast in there to do the job. Back in my bottling days I once had a beer in the secondary 12 weeks sitting on clean yeast cake and it was sweet once I got it into the bottle and carbonated. It did carbonate just fine to

Dogger

cheers guys ^_^

I the supern008 will rack my next batch and compare..
tis a massive help these forums.

My first few beers where pretty bad then i started I switched from neo pink to sodium met and also started racking but the beers seem a lot better since then.. not sure if it was the racking or the sanitizer or maybe both

db wrote:

Tyberious Funk wrote:

Shaun wrote:Cheeno keep up with the raking and drop the bulk priming it is a waste of time and takes all too much effort for very little if any improved result. Go with the scoop measure and individually prime each bottle.

I really don't understand this. I don't find bulk priming any slower than individually priming each bottle. Actually, I find it marginally faster with the added convenience of being able to use a variety of bottle sizes safely. Having said that, I've got my technique down pat these days...

correct me if I'm wrong.. but from memory Shaun kegs the majority of his batch. which would make bulk priming the last couple of litres a PITA.. scooping sugar into 6or so bottles aint that bad - 30 on the other hand

if your priming a whole 20+ litre batch thats a different story. IMO its faster to bulk prime

Sorry for the delay have been busy and not online. Yes I do keg now, however I used bottles before kegs and found bulk priming a pain in the arse. You need to clean extra equipment as well as the bottles then mix up the dextrose then transfer the brew onto the dextrose.

How is this easier than filling each bottle with a measured scoop of sugar and filling the bottles with beer?? I really did not and still do not see the advantage of bulk priming!!

If you are using odd sized bottles or different sized bottles for batchers you are making life harder for yourself.

Shaun,

There's an overlooked advantage in bulk priming, each beer style requires a different amount of carbonation to be true to the style, by bulk priming you have better control over the amount of sugar per volume.