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Oops! Would it hurt now to drop the temp. back to 16 deg, after brewing for 2 days around 22 deg? Anna (PS: Doc - have you received the crook bottle yet?).

Not received the bottle yet, with the public holiday and living outside the metro area i would expect it to take a few days.

Definitely try and knock the temperature down. 22C will be ripe bananas. I go as low as 14C with this yeast although in my experience 16C is the sweet spot.

Looks like back to the frozen drink bottles! (I didn't realise you could go so low with Coopers' yeast!). Thanks Doc.

Rumours I've heard is that Coopers ferment at 14C and pitch massive amounts of yeast that is able to finish the primary ferment in 3 days flat. The yeast is then stripped out using a centrifuge and fresh yeast added with the priming sugar (which is referred to as invert sugar and in liquid form).

All just whispers but make sense to me.

No wonder HBers can't match the taste exactly!

Kits will come very close, you just need to ferment low enough not to get the banana esters.

The trouble you will face is getting the FG down to 1.004 - 1.006 which is where CPA finishes. If you don't believe me next, time you are drinking a CPA pour some into a glass, knock all the carbonation out by stirring with a spoon then take a reading with a hydrometer.

AG brewers can achieve this by mashing at a low temperature (62-63C). As a kit brewer you need to add dextrose to achieve this and in doing so you change the flavour. The accepted wisdom for CPA is that it doesn't contain sugar.

I'm not trying to argue kits vs AG it's just a fact of life. The mashing has been done for you so you have little to no control over the fermentability of the resulting wort.

The recipes you are brewing (Anna/Planner) will turn out very nice beers and will hopefully encourage you to continue using the real yeast. You can use it in all sorts of beers, not just in cloning other Coopers beers. I love it in a brown porter and stout.

I've been thinking of using the [re-cultured Coopers] yeast in a stout but brewing at about 20 degrees, to try and get a bit of banana going. Would a roasty, perhaps coffee-ish malt profile mask the banana esters, or would they still come through?

EDIT: Clarity.

drsmurto wrote:The recipes you are brewing (Anna/Planner) will turn out very nice beers and will hopefully encourage you to continue using the real yeast. You can use it in all sorts of beers, not just in cloning other Coopers beers. I love it in a brown porter and stout.

Doc
Already thinking about what else I can use CPA yeast in. Most likely it will be your DSGA k&b, as I already have a baseline for taste using US-05. Will be interesting to see what difference yeast makes when all other ingredients are maintained.

On the temp issue, I checked again before work and still sitting at 14-16 with no need to add ice for the last 2 days. I was worried that 14 may have been a little low, but last night the gladwrap was tight enough to beat out a tune and the krausen was 50mm thick, so all good.

I did realise that a CPA clone didn't require an aroma addition, but never having used PoR before I was keen to give it a run. If I don't like the result (unlikely with the current smell) I'll feed it to friends and try again.

Anna wrote:It will be interesting to see who gets closest to the elusive "Coopers Green" on-tap taste.

Anna
Definaletly looking for the on-tap taste, cause we don't get it on tap in town
Good luck with the brew.

Cheers
Planner

Well, I may have a problem (again!). I went home last night ready to pack the re-cultured yeast CPA in ice to bring the temp. down and before I did anything noticed that all fermentation appears to have stopped! It had been bubbling away nicely for the two days since I put it on (at around 22 deg) but now NOTHING! The airlock water has equalled out on both sides like there's no pressure at all. There's foam on the top but no krusty bits around the edge of the fermenter like usual. The OG was 1.056 (high I know, but I think my hydrometer is a bit out) - the SG now is 1.028. I'll test it again tonight, but I was just wondering whether this is normal for re-cultured Coopers' yeast? Can it keep fermenting with no apparent signs? Planner - how long did yours look active? Anna

Doc, I also knew that CPA didn't require an aroma addition, but I used a bit of POR for aroma in a Draught a couple of months ago and we just loved the result - smells so good, so I couldn't resist!

Anna wrote:Planner - how long did yours look active?

Anna

Brewed and pitched on Sunday night (nothing worth watching on the box, so I sat in the shed and listened to the footy) @ 23deg OG 1040
Monday am, no action 18deg
Monday pm, some condensation 18deg
Tuesday pm, good krausen 16deg
Wednesday pm, krausen 50-60mm glad wrap taut 14-16deg
Thursday am, krausen 50-60mm glad wrap taut 14-16deg
Haven't taken a SG yet, and probably won't until bottling, generally at 2 weeks.

Hope all ends well

Planner

What was your process for re-culturing the Coopers' yeast? And when you say "krausen" do you mean foam on the top or the krusty-looking brown stuff on the sides of the fermenter?

Do I sound worried?? (I've also put the question on the Coopers' forum! )

Anna

I know everybody knows this already, but you shouldn't ever use your airlock as a sign of fermentation. Anna, you said that you still have foam on top (krausen) which is a sign of fermentation. I'm guessing you also have condensation on the underside of your lid -- another sign of fermentation.

Don't worry, relax and have a homebrew (regardless of if you're at work or not ). Do another hydrometer test on it tonight and post your results. If it hasn't moved, then do the normal things to rouse yeast that has stalled (ie, raise temp a little bit, give the fermenter a swirl, etc.)

Anna wrote:What was your process for re-culturing the Coopers' yeast? And when you say "krausen" do you mean foam on the top or the krusty-looking brown stuff on the sides of the fermenter?

Do I sound worried?? (I've also put the question on the Coopers' forum! )

Anna

Anna

Method used for re-culturing is outlined in "Reculturing Yeast Question" in "Making Beer" towards end of discussion (sorry don't know how to create link). I didn't take Warra's valued advice on stepping up as Sunday night brewing was a spur of the moment decision and I hadn't yet stepped it up to a bigger volume.
Method was provided by an AHB member via a PDF file.
My understanding of krausen is the foam and bubbles on top of wort, but am happy to be corrected. The krusty-looking brown stuff I don't know the name of, and until now I honestly hadn't considered it might have a name (other than unwanted crud that's a pain to clean).

And yes, you do sound a bit worried. If it wasn't so early on a work day I'd suggest having a beer and relaxing.

Planner

Edit: beaten by bullfrog, bloody work getting in the way of beer.

I had a piece of someone's birthday cake instead!! Thanks people - back to work!

Two days and you're worried about fermentation stalling?

You are now 110% obsessed with this hobby.

Can you outline your procedure for stepping up the yeast from the CPA bottle(s)?

I think you should be waiting at least 5 days before worrying about it. If the krausen drops and the SG is still too high then you can gently swirl the fermenter without causing splashing to re-suspend the yeast. At that temperature there is no way the yeast will be going to sleep before chewing through all the sugars. Unless you vastly underpitched.

Planner wrote:...My understanding of krausen is the foam and bubbles on top of wort, but am happy to be corrected. The krusty-looking brown stuff I don't know the name of, and until now I honestly hadn't considered it might have a name (other than unwanted crud that's a pain to clean)...

Just a quick tip, Planner:

(Think I got this from something Dr.S posted, by the way) An easy way to clean the brown crud ring off the fermenter after bottling/kegging/racking is to use the trub and yeast sediment. That stuff is abrasive so it works like a scourer, just one that won't scratch your precious fermenting vessel. Just grab yourself a handful and rub it over the area where the krausen has dried and made a ring, comes off in no time. Also, the trub feels really cool in your hands -- doesn't taste terrific, though.

bullfrog wrote: Just grab yourself a handful and rub it over the area where the krausen has dried and made a ring, comes off in no time. Also, the trub feels really cool in your hands -- doesn't taste terrific, though.

Thanks bullfrog
Will give it a go when I bottle the barleywine this weekend, (the cleaning method, not the tasting of trub) if it ever drops to FG.

I have to ask. Why would you have tasted the trub I've tasted wort, krausen, hops, all ingredients, but never even considered tasting trub. Anna's original thread seems to have wandered considerably OT, sorry Anna

Planner

drsmurto wrote:Two days and you're worried about fermentation stalling?

You are now 110% obsessed with this hobby.

Can you outline your procedure for stepping up the yeast from the CPA bottle(s)?

I think you should be waiting at least 5 days before worrying about it. If the krausen drops and the SG is still too high then you can gently swirl the fermenter without causing splashing to re-suspend the yeast. At that temperature there is no way the yeast will be going to sleep before chewing through all the sugars. Unless you vastly underpitched.

Yes Doc, I'm definitely obsessed! I got the process from the Coopers' site, viz:

"Start several days prior to putting wort down

1. Place 4 X 375ml bottles of Coopers Pale or Sparkling in the fridge for a day or two to bed the yeast down.

2. Several days prior to when you wish to put the wort down, make a 1 litre mini-wort (1 litre of cool, boiled water, 50g of dextrose and 50g of light powdered or liquid malt extract). Pour the beer off carefully, leaving the sediment behind. You can leave a little beer behind as well, rather than lose any yeast.

3. Drink the beer.

4. Distribute wort evenly between the bottles (i.e. 250ml per 375ml bottle).

5. Fit an airlock to each bottle or cover with cling film and secure with a rubber band and give them a shake. Make a pinhole in the cling film once the yeast becomes active and pressure starts to build up inside the bottles.

6. Maintain brewing temperature (18 – 22C) for at least two days. When the culture has become quite cloudy and active, make the wort up and pitch (add) the yeast."

This seemed easier than the process you outlined once before, as I could do it straight into the stubbies rather than having to sanitise a separate bottle and then step it up. (Lazy, I know! ) Maybe I should have used all 6 stubbies?

Anna

Planner wrote:...I have to ask. Why would you have tasted the trub I've tasted wort, krausen, hops, all ingredients, but never even considered tasting trub....

Figured I'd give it a go after I'd had a couple of drinks and had just finished transferring a batch to a keg. Needless to say, it's not something that I'll do again.

bullfrog wrote: Figured I'd give it a go after I'd had a couple of drinks and had just finished transferring a batch to a keg. Needless to say, it's not something that I'll do again.

And the Doc thinks I'm obsessive! LOL. (and just because I get up at 2 am to check out what the brew is doing, doesn't mean anything either... )

Oh Bullfrog, I meant to say : I don't normally rely on the airlock - it's just that that one never worked, so I got a bit "obsessive" about it and sanded some rough bits off the tube. That seemed to fix it because it blooped away nicely for the 2 days and I was feeling very pleased with myself. So now that it's stopped I am wondering whether it is now the brew, not the airlock. I do so love the bloop!