A short sumary of the larger fermenting technique please :)

[alangman]

Hi all,

I'm putting down my first larger tomorrow (pilsner). I'm also using liquid yeast for the first time. A few questions:

What should the wort temp be when I add the yeast to it?
How long should I leave it at that temp before putting the fermentor in the fridge?
I understand that after 2-4 days (sg at 1020ish) I should remove the wort from the fridge and let it "brew-out" for 1-2 days at 18-20 degs. Is this correct?
After this stage, I should rack the beer and then larger it at 0-2 degs for 1 month or more. Correct?
Then, I bottle the beer....finally What temp should I store the beer at to allow the carbonation process to proceed?

Cheers,

Adam L

[BierMeister]

Hi all,

I'm putting down my first larger tomorrow (pilsner). I'm also using liquid yeast for the first time. A few questions:

What should the wort temp be when I add the yeast to it?
How long should I leave it at that temp before putting the fermentor in the fridge?
I understand that after 2-4 days (sg at 1020ish) I should remove the wort from the fridge and let it "brew-out" for 1-2 days at 18-20 degs. Is this correct?
After this stage, I should rack the beer and then larger it at 0-2 degs for 1 month or more. Correct?
Then, I bottle the beer....finally What temp should I store the beer at to allow the carbonation process to proceed?

Cheers,

Adam L

Adam,

Sorry you've had to wait and have probably done everything already, but I have been away and didn't see your post till today.

1. Wort temp should be as close to fermenting temp as possible as the yeast can reproduce and eat/give off the various nutrients etc better if they are reproducing at the temp they will brew in. For a true Czech Pils I would say 12C or lower 8 to 10 would probably be better. Assuming you are using a Czech or Bohiemian Yeast.

2. Answered in 1. (If you have difficulty getting it to your brew temp then 16 C or below to pitch and then straight in the fridge she goes)

3. You should only have to raise the brew temp (called a Diacetyl rest) if you added the yeast at a high temp. above 16C as the yeast then eat up the diacetyl better at this temp. It you follow my suggestion on 1. then this step is not necessary. I would wait till the brew is finished 7-10 days before doing a Diacetyl rest and only to 18C and for 24 hours or so.

4. Rack off of the yeast cake and lager at between 0 and 10 degrees. The higher the temp the shorter the lager period, but the lower the temp the better the resultant beer. I have used as my method 2-3 C for a month and then bottled.

5. Once you bottle ( I would bulk prime with between 110gms and 140gms of Dex/20L depending on your taste in fizziness) you can leave it at room temp. Although with the coming heat you may want to keep them at around 18 or less for the first two weeks but this stage will not effect the taste of the beer too much at reasonable temps.

The main point is consistancy in temp in the fermenting stage and you will have a better tasting beer that you don't have to diacetyl rest.

See my rant on Lager Temps today

[alangman]

Great stuff

Thanks for the reply. I have all the ingredients and now I'm just waiting till I get all the concepts straight in my head (though I'm using Wyeast Danish Larger yeast due to availibility).

I have had some suggest that it is best to pitch the yeast at 25 degrees and then put the fermentor into the fridge. They mention that this allows the yeast to multiply rapidly for a while as well as cool down gradualy to prevent any thermal shock. What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,

Adam L

[BierMeister]

Great stuff

Thanks for the reply. I have all the ingredients and now I'm just waiting till I get all the concepts straight in my head (though I'm using Wyeast Danish Larger yeast due to availibility).

I have had some suggest that it is best to pitch the yeast at 25 degrees and then put the fermentor into the fridge. They mention that this allows the yeast to multiply rapidly for a while as well as cool down gradualy to prevent any thermal shock. What are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,

Adam L

Danish Lager is fine. 25 is too high. Yes the yeast will produce quicker, but will give off more Diacetyl and this is the butterscotch type taste that shouldn't be in european lagers(Californian steam lagers yes, but thats another story) the problem with pitching the yeast at to high a temp will be that you will have this Diacetyl in high amounts and the yeast may struggle to reconsume it all in the Diacetyl rest. That is why I suggest that you try and get the temp as low as before pitching the yeast. Make a yeast starter first. The Wyeast packs are O.K but if you leave them 3 days and pitch that into a 1 L yeast starter then leave that in the fridge at around the brewing temp (or 15C if that is too hard) for a day or two you will have more than enough yeast to pitch giving a great resulting beer. Pour off the starter beer and only pour the yeast slurry at the bottom to avoid the taste of the starter getting into your lager. You should have a cup or two of the stuff and this is ideal. Making the yeast starter at the temp of the brew will stop any temp shock and the lower temp just means it will take a day or two longer. Big deal if the brew tastes top notch.

[alangman]

Ok, I like what you're saying

Can you give me a link to a page explaining the yeast starter stuff? Again, I've had variour advice. For instance, the wyeast pack says "pop", wait 3 hours, then add to wort.

Cheers,

Adam L


....slowly learning Thanks for your time.

[BierMeister]

http://www.howtobrew.com

This is by a yank but is free to print etc. I have copied and pasted the entired thing, but there is a section on Lager brewing and yeast starters which got me off to a good start. I think this page will answer all your questions, but I came across this one as well to do with yeast starters. http://WWW.Countrybrewer.com.au and the idea of using a soft drink bottle was a good one.

[alangman]

Cheers

[Ed]

Danish Lager is fine. 25 is too high. Yes the yeast will produce quicker, but will give off more Diacetyl and this is the butterscotch type taste that shouldn't be in european lagers(Californian steam lagers yes, but thats another story) the problem with pitching the yeast at to high a temp will be that you will have this Diacetyl in high amounts and the yeast may struggle to reconsume it all in the Diacetyl rest. That is why I suggest that you try and get the temp as low as before pitching the yeast. Make a yeast starter first. The Wyeast packs are O.K but if you leave them 3 days and pitch that into a 1 L yeast starter then leave that in the fridge at around the brewing temp (or 15C if that is too hard) for a day or two you will have more than enough yeast to pitch giving a great resulting beer. Pour off the starter beer and only pour the yeast slurry at the bottom to avoid the taste of the starter getting into your lager. You should have a cup or two of the stuff and this is ideal. Making the yeast starter at the temp of the brew will stop any temp shock and the lower temp just means it will take a day or two longer. Big deal if the brew tastes top notch.

I can't really agree with this entirely. One cause of diacetyl is a slow start to ferment. If the start to ferment is slow, the yeasts will produce more than they can consume at the end of ferment when they clean up. The most likely flavour that would be introduced when pitching warm is some fruitiness, but that won't happen much if the brew is brought into the correct temp range before activity really kicks in.

One thing that can happen when pitching too warm is a weaker cell wall, but I'm not sure just how significant a problem it is (haven't ever been able to find a decent tech paper on it). BTW, I have never experienced diacetyl in a steam lager nor would I desire it in there. I do agree that it would be best to pitch into the correct temp if possible though as long as you ensure enough yeast is pitched.

Cheers, Ed

[lethaldog]

I was always told with a liquid yeast to pitch at around 25*C and when fermentation just starts then bring the brew back to desired temp, i have always done this and i use the danish lager regularily, never had any diacetyl problem nor have i had any fruitiness

[Aussie Claret]

Ed is quite correct regarding Diacetyl it only occurs during cold fermentation not higher temperatures; and is consumed when the wort is warmed slightly to approx 16c for a day or two at or near end of fermentation.

And will you guys learn to spell LAGER not LARGER, unless you're making a larger lager starter, lol
AC

[lethaldog]

And will you guys learn to spell LAGER not LARGER, unless you're making a larger lager starter, lol
AC

Maybe its just a very big 1

[morgs]

Also there is too much use of the word 'to' when its bigger brother 'too' is the appropiate word.

[morgs]

[alangman]

Great to see healthy debate

So, from this, I'm planning to:

1) Pitch yeast at 25 degrees;
2) Put fermenter into the fridge straight away (it should take about 12 hrs to cool down to 9 degrees which allows for rapid multiplication);
3) Wait till the SG is about 1.020 and then remove from fridge for 1-2 days (diacetyl rest);
4) Rack into a cube;
5) Put into a 1-4 degree fridge for 1 month;
6) Re-rack for a bulk primming and then bottle;
7) Store at room temp to allow bottle fermenting;
8 ) Finally, drink the beer!

Sound good?

Last thing, should I make a yeast starter? If so, I plan to:
1) Take yeast pack out of the fridge and leave to reach room temp;
2) "smack" the pack and wait 3 hrs;
3) Add the pack to 500ml of boiled aerated wort (SG 1.020 to 1.030) and keep at 25 degrees for 12 hours;
4) Pour off liquid and add the slurry to the waiting wort.

Correct?

Thanks all,

Adam L

[Ed]

I would still try to get lower than 25C before pitching if you can. If using liquid yeast, you can go down to ferment temp as long as enough cells are pitched, but I would think it OK to pitch around 18 to 20C. If using dried yeast, I would pitch around 20C. 9C is pretty cold ferment conditions, even for a lager yeast. Is there a paticular reason you want to go down to this temp, is it recomended by Wyeast for the strain?

When you bottle after lagering, let the beer warm up to room temp for a day first. The cold ferment and lagering means there is more CO2 in suspension than a hotter brewed beer. Warming it up first will drop some of that CO2 out. If this isn't done, you will get too high carbonation unless you compensate enough by adding less priming.

I would also make that starter at least 1.5 litres or don't bother making it all if you can't get that volume. 500ml won't generate any more cells than was originally there in the smack pack. You will need to make the starter days ahead in order to just be pitching the slurry. This will allow time for the yeast to multiply, ferment, and start to fall out (just like when you brew a batch).

Cheers, Ed

[alangman]

Yeast is:

2042 Danish Lager Yeast. Rich, Dortmund-style, crisp, dry finish. Soft profile accentuates hop characteristics. Flocculation - low; apparent attenuation 73-77%. (46-56° F, 8-13° C).

Wyeast recommend:

Maximum Yeast Performance
Practical guidelines for Homebrewing

The performance of living yeast cells can be affected in many ways. Shipping and distribution can expose the yeast to temperatures which are harmful. Most of our products are shipped air freight, midweek to minimize transit time. Even with that we find some detrimental exposure on occasion. Loss of viable cells by age or temperature exposure are the most common beginnings of problems. If this is compounded by other factors, the performance can become unsatisfactory. A number of these are listed below.

1)Preparing a starter Culture Solution...
To make more beer, or increase the pitching rate, if the package is aged or not used right after it swells, boil a pint of wort S.G. 1.020 - 30 using 3 -4 tablespoons malt extract in 2 cups of water for 15 minutes. Cool to 75 F., add yeast and incubate for 12 hours or until high krausen.

2)Using the optimum timing and temperatures...
Delaying the use of the yeast after it starts incubating, whether from the package or a starter, can reduce performance. Make transfers in approximately 24 hr intervals at 75° F. Maintain at 75° F during incubation. Colder or warmer by a few degrees is significant. Longer or shorter time periods are significant.

3)High gravity worts...
(1.056 and greater need more yeast). Double the yeast amount for every 0.008 S.G. above 1.048.

4)Aeration...
is extremely important for all worts.

5)Dissolved oxygen ...
is required for the respiration of yeast at the onset of fermentation. One good method of providing dissolved oxygen for yeast is when preparing a starter solution, use a jar or flask with adequate headspace, then agitate the container frequently while brewing. By doing this, you will provide more dissolved oxygen to the yeast when it is most needed.

6)Uniform Temperatures are important...
keep at 75° F until fermentation is evident, and then adjust to the desired temperature. Fluctuations from night to day need to be minimized.

7)Wort Composition...
effects the amount of head thrown, and can vary among different yeast strains. Some ale and lager strains produce little or no head at first in some worts, although fermentation may be active, it may not be readily evident.

[Ed]

Thanks for posting that. OK, that's pretty cold but must be alright.

What they are talking about with the starter is the ratio of malt to water and it's really just a general overview which also covers aged or poorly transported packages. Note how they say "if the package doesn't swell". So by making a small starter, say 500ml, you will probably end up with the intended number of cells originally designed for the package. Also, the 12 hr wait is only if you are pitching at "high krausen" which means you won't be able to pour the beer off and pitch only the slurry because all the yeast will be in suspension. If you want to just slurry pitch, you will need a big starter and wait days for it to finish before the yeast can settle.

If the aim of making a starter is to increase cell count and not simply to regenerate an old packet, then a big starter will be required.

What they talk about there for high gravity worts also applies to cold fermented beers. Cooler conditions or higher gravity requires a larger number of cells. But if you are pitching warm and the package swells just fine, I wouldn't bother making a small starter.

Cheers, Ed

[alangman]

So much to learn.... well, that's half the fun I guess.... the other half can be discussed over a beer

[lethaldog]

I use Wyeast danish lager at anywhere between 9-13*C and its fine at a constant 9, i always start with this method
Smack the pack and shake it hard to mix
leave it sit to incubate for about 24 hours
grab a 2 litre coke bottle, bung and airlock and steralise them
mix about 200ml of boiling (kettle) water with 150gm ldme
fill coke bottle about 1/4 full with cold water
add hot malt
fill with cold to about 100ml from the top and add contents of smackpack.
give a good hard shake for a couple of seconds then let sit to ferment out with bung and airlock in place, this can take anywhere from 36-72 hours depending on temp, ideal is between 21-25*C.

When its done steralise 6 stubbies and fill them with sollution from the 2 litre bottle making sure to swirl wel( 2 litre) to get all the sediment, Cap these and imediately refridgerate, when you are ready to do a brew just prepare one of these the day before like this:

Steralise a 750ml longneck, bung and airlock.
Add about 1/3 cold water to this then in a cup mix 1 heaped table spoon of malt or dex with a good splash of hot water and dissolve add this to the bottle then add your stubbie once again be sure to swirl the sediment and also bring up to room temp or there abouts before adding, fill longneck with cold to about 100ml from the top, shake well, bung and airlock it and let to sit overnight, next day make your brew, pitch this bottle( yes swirl again to get all of it) and continue as normal- its foolproof and you get six lots instead of 1

Cheers
Leigh

[rwh]

That looks good; I'm about to branch into liquid yeasts for my first all-grain brews, both of which are going to use Wyeast-1056 Americal Ale yeast. I was wondering what technique to use to split it up; I'll use yours. Thx!