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The local homebrew shop doesn't stock raw malt/hops etc. But I have been trying for some time now to make a good dopplebock from a can kit by adding different things.

First question...is it possible to get a can kit which actually uses munich malt to start with?

second question...is adding dark dry malt going to have the same effect as using more of the munich malt? (obviously a can kit isn't going to have the amount of malt needed to make this brew)

I have until now basicly been working from an australian old base then adding 1KG of dark dry malt and 500 grams of dextrose. I have tried a bunch of different hops sachets (hallertau, fuggles, goldings etc.) but they all seem to be too sweet and don't have that crisp bitterness to balance the added malt and sugar.

None of my attempts thus far have been anywhere near what I am interested in (my favorite being Spatens Optimator). I am willing to put the work in to make the perfect brew, and money is not a huge issue. I may even be able to order things from an on-line supplier if need be.

Any and all useful input will be greatly appreciated!

Forgot to ask about yeast...I have been using the packet yeast up til now, but am open to suggestions on what would be best for this special brew

Cheers!

You are better off using a good lager kit and adding your dark malt and other bits and pieces to it, after all bocks are dark lagers and olds are ales, also a saflager yeast wouldnt be to bad

As Leigh suggests, a good lager kit and some saflager will put you in the right direction. As for a dopplebock (double bock), well, we need to get some serious malt and hops involved as well as non-kit yeast if we're going to get close to that glorious offering from Spatens (I'm currently going through a dunkelweizen doppelbock phase with Erdinger Pikantus - it's truly stuff from the gods!)...

So, lets get our bearings straight - what are the BJCP guidelines on dopplebocks:

5C. Doppelbock
Aroma: Very strong maltiness. Darker versions will have significant melanoidins and often some toasty aromas. A light caramel flavor from a long boil is acceptable. Lighter versions will have a strong malt presence with some melanoidins and toasty notes. Virtually no hop aroma, although a light noble hop aroma is acceptable in pale versions. No diacetyl. A moderately low fruity aspect to the aroma often described as prune, plum or grape may be present (but is optional) in dark versions due to reactions between malt, the boil, and aging. A very slight chocolate-like aroma may be present in darker versions, but no roasted or burned aromatics should ever be present. Moderate alcohol aroma may be present.

Appearance: Deep gold to dark brown in color. Darker versions often have ruby highlights. Lagering should provide good clarity. Large, creamy, persistent head (color varies with base style: white for pale versions, off-white for dark varieties). Stronger versions might have impaired head retention, and can display noticeable legs.

Flavor: Very rich and malty. Darker versions will have significant melanoidins and often some toasty flavors. Lighter versions will a strong malt flavor with some melanoidins and toasty notes. A very slight chocolate flavor is optional in darker versions, but should never be perceived as roasty or burnt. Clean lager flavor with no diacetyl. Some fruitiness (prune, plum or grape) is optional in darker versions. Invariably there will be an impression of alcoholic strength, but this should be smooth and warming rather than harsh or burning. Presence of higher alcohols (fusels) should be very low to none. Little to no hop flavor (more is acceptable in pale versions). Hop bitterness varies from moderate to moderately low but always allows malt to dominate the flavor. Most versions are fairly sweet, but should have an impression of attenuation. The sweetness comes from low hopping, not from incomplete fermentation. Paler versions generally have a drier finish.

Mouthfeel: Medium-full to full body. Moderate to moderately-low carbonation. Very smooth without harshness or astringency.

Overall Impression: A very strong and rich lager. A bigger version of either a traditional bock or a helles bock.

History: A Bavarian specialty first brewed in Munich by the monks of St. Francis of Paula. Historical versions were less well attenuated than modern interpretations, with consequently higher sweetness and lower alcohol levels (and hence was considered "liquid bread" by the monks). The term "doppel (double) bock" was coined by Munich consumers. Many doppelbocks have names ending in "-ator," either as a tribute to the prototypical Salvator or to take advantage of the beer's popularity.

Comments: Most versions are dark colored and may display the caramelizing and melanoidin effect of decoction mashing, but excellent pale versions also exist. The pale versions will not have the same richness and darker malt flavors of the dark versions, and may be a bit drier, hoppier and more bitter. While most traditional examples are in the ranges cited, the style can be considered to have no upper limit for gravity, alcohol and bitterness (thus providing a home for very strong lagers). Any fruitiness is due to Munich and other specialty malts, not yeast-derived esters developed during fermentation.

Ingredients: Pils and/or Vienna malt for pale versions (with some Munich), Munich and Vienna malts for darker ones and occasionally a tiny bit of darker color malts (such as Carafa). Noble hops. Water hardness varies from soft to moderately carbonate. Clean lager yeast. Decoction mashing is traditional.

Vital Statistics:
OG: 1.072 - 1.096+
FG: 1.016 - 1.024+
IBU's:16 - 26+
SRM (Colour):6 - 25
ABV: 7 - 10+%

Commercial Examples: Paulaner Salvator, Ayinger Celebrator, Spaten Optimator, Tucher Bajuvator, Augustiner Maximator, Weihenstephaner Korbinian, Weltenburger Kloster Asam-Bock, EKU 28, Eggenberg Urbock 23°, Samichlaus, Bell's Consecrator, Moretti La Rossa

Bocks and Doppelbocks aren't the easiest beers to make, so let's be realistic about what we can achieve with a kit - and don't take that as a slight on kit brewing, it's just the reality of the situation...Anyway, I'd look at a Bavarian Lager kit or equivalent to start off with - I'm sure that any dark lager kit would be good but I'll use a Coopers Bav Lager kit since they're widely available.
Colour is easy - Dark malt extract is the go - but that won't give you the melanoidins or slight choc notes that a true doppelbock has. And to be honest, you basically have two choices to address those flavour issues - steeping grains to get close, or doing a partial / mini mash to get even closer.

If you're steeping grains, I'd steep 300g Caramunich II, 500g Dark Crystal and about 100g of Carafa I or Choc malt in 6L for a 23L batch - and add about 4kg of light liquid malt extract and the Bavarian Lager kit (or save some money and just buy 6kg of malt extract), since you're looking at a starting gravity of 1.085 to be in the zone...

A mini or partial mash gives us more scope to hit the bullseye - I'd mash some Vienna, a good lump of Dark Munich and some Melanoidin Malt along with a dash of Carafa I or Choc malt.

As for hops, you need to use a German noble so I'd boil about 60g of Hallertau in an 8L boil with the steeped grains - gently add the malt extract / kit after the 30 minute boil - you need some decent IBU's in this to balance all that malt so don't have too much sugar / malt in the boil which will lower the hop bittering potential of the short boil. You've mentioned your disappointment with sweetness so keeping the boil ingredients to just the steeped grains will result in a well bittered small boil that will help balance out the massive malt bill in the recipe - doppelbocks are big beers that need plenty of lager yeast to get through all those sugars.

As for yeast, you need a decent lager yeast for this big wort - if you don't have temperature control, then you can make do with San Fransisco Lager yeast (White Labs WLP810 or Wyeast 2112 California Lager Yeast) that works well at 18-20C but beware that it's highly flocculant so you may need to rouse the wort on occasion to finish it off.
If you have a nice cold corner in the garage or you have a temperature controlled fridge for fermenting lagers, I'd recommend Wyeast 2124 or 2206 and make sure that you have at least 1L of starter to get through this big brew.
If we're on a budget or we're limited to dry yeast, two sachets of W34/70, or S-189 or S-23 will do the job.
Hope my musings are of help...
Cheers,
TL

What about those chocolate liquid malt extracts you can get in the cans? Maybe if I mixed one of those with the coopers lager kit?

Most of what you said went right over the top of my head but I will try to do more research and figure it out

The hops you speak of...these are the sachets or do you meaqn plugs? Also how much would you boil etc.

I realise this is all a shot in the dark and it is fun experimenting and the beer is always drinkable for sure! But it might be a bit more fun if I could some day get close to where I want to be with it.

I used to have a Guiness obsesion which was much in the same until I found a great can kit recipe for that and I must say in a blind taste test I myself would have a hard time distinguishing...almost...

I may just print your info and take it to the guy at the HBS though I am not sure he has any idea about brewing to be honest. He told me to use the old base to make the bock when I asked him point blank "how do I make a bock?". He also doesn't stock must in the way of malt or hops (and he only sells the extracts in 1KG increments and it is VERY expensive!)

Anyway I am bottling tomorrow or the next day so I better get to work on it soon

Cheers for the help fellas!

Kevnlis wrote:What about those chocolate liquid malt extracts you can get in the cans? Maybe if I mixed one of those with the coopers lager kit?

Yep, good idea - I'm not across the extract range so that's a good starter - they must be those little 1kg jobbies I see next to the shelves of kits in the local hbs!

Kevnlis wrote: Most of what you said went right over the top of my head but I will try to do more research and figure it out

Yeah, sorry about that - I was into my 4th pint of Steamfest and it was all coming out in a rush! Basically, you use the kit as a 1/3rd component of the brew, adding malt extract and some grains, which can be steeped or preferably mashed to get closer to the real thing...

Kevnlis wrote: The hops you speak of...these are the sachets or do you meaqn plugs? Also how much would you boil etc.

Other than the three varieties of hop flowers I grow at home, I buy and regularly use pellets - no particular reason, I just do. Plugs are fine but I have better quantity control with pellets. Since we're not doing an all grain version, you need to do a short boil (at least 30 mins) in order to "key" the hop bittering properties into the malt. The problem there is that the amount of hop bitterness imparted in the boil is directly related to the quantity of hops used and the gravity / density of the boil due to the sugars present - in short, a high gravity boil will not be as bitter as a relatively lower gravity boil, given the same quantity of hops and duration of boil. Anyhoo, the 60g of Hallertau I mentioned was a rough figure - I'm assuming an average Alpha Acid rate of 4 percent for Hallertau - so 60 grams of Hallertau pellets boiled for at least 30 mins in a stock pot with 8L of sweet liqour you get from the steep, or mini mash, will do. If time isn't a hassle, I'd boil the stock pot contents for an hour - you need plenty of bitterness to balance the substantial malt quantity in this recipe, plus you will get some additional flavour positive melanoidins during a longer boil when you do the mini mash...
If you're sick of Hallertau, I'd look at Tettnanger, Spalt and possibly Perle as viable alternatives.

Kevnlis wrote: I realise this is all a shot in the dark and it is fun experimenting and the beer is always drinkable for sure! But it might be a bit more fun if I could some day get close to where I want to be with it.

That's the joy of brewing your own, isn't it?

Kevnlis wrote: I used to have a Guiness obsesion which was much in the same until I found a great can kit recipe for that and I must say in a blind taste test I myself would have a hard time distinguishing...almost...

Me too, I had a 5 star / bullet proof kit based Guinness clone recipe...until I tasted an all grain version that medalled at the Australian Nationals!

Kevnlis wrote: I may just print your info and take it to the guy at the HBS though I am not sure he has any idea about brewing to be honest. He told me to use the old base to make the bock when I asked him point blank "how do I make a bock?". He also doesn't stock must in the way of malt or hops (and he only sells the extracts in 1KG increments and it is VERY expensive!)

The old kits are a reasonable starting point, but to me, I'd prefer to use a lager kit and colour it with steeped or mashed grains, or the kit of choc malt you referred to. There are plenty of on-line retailers who will give you exactly what you are after - ok, you pay more for postage etc but if you really want to pull of a well made beer that closely emulates what you're aiming for, you can only go so far with extract, especially if the hops he sells you are in the teabags. Basically, it becomes a cost/benefit decision that you need to make.

Kevnlis wrote: Anyway I am bottling tomorrow or the next day so I better get to work on it soon
Cheers for the help fellas!

No probs - Cheers,
TL

Looks like I am going to use the following just to see how it goes:

1 can Coopers Lager kit $11 ish
1 KG can Morgans Caramalt liquid extract $8.50
1 KG light liquid malt extract $8
150 grams of barley which I have roasted to near burnt in the oven
3x 20 gram sachets of Hallertau in the full 30 minute boil along with the barley and 2 litres water.

Should I add anything of the malt to the boil?

Will 30 minutes be enough to get all the bittering from the hops (I believe the hops that goes into the sachets is preboiled for 20 minutes or so before it is put in the tea bag anyway?) and all the flavour from the barley?

Do I need more water?

Will use about 18 litres of water to keep it a bit on the rich side...This is really all I have access to without mail ordering. I will order some stuff for my next brew and try the mash you suggested.

What about things like molassas or licquorice extract?

Though at $8 per kilo I am not sure I want to use 6 kilos of that malt extract...getting a bit rich for a single brew

Kevnlis wrote:Looks like I am going to use the following just to see how it goes:

1 can Coopers Lager kit $11 ish
1 KG can Morgans Caramalt liquid extract $8.50
1 KG light liquid malt extract $8
150 grams of barley which I have roasted to near burnt in the oven
3x 20 gram sachets of Hallertau in the full 30 minute boil along with the barley and 2 litres water.

Should I add anything of the malt to the boil?

The roasted barley is a good thought - but will probably be more like a schwartzbier than a bock - but that's only a minor issue. Didn't the HBS have any Chocolate malt??
As for the boil, I'd boil the light LME and barley in a stock pot with at least 8L of water and the 3 sachets of Hallertau for at least 30 minutes.

Kevnlis wrote: Will 30 minutes be enough to get all the bittering from the hops (I believe the hops that goes into the sachets is preboiled for 20 minutes or so before it is put in the tea bag anyway?) and all the flavour from the barley?

Do I need more water?

Ideally, full boils go for 60 minutes to get the bittering components so yes, if you can do a 60 minute boil, go for it. As I said, it's a mini boil and I'd use at least 8L in a stock pot. You'd get a much better hop bittering and flavour profile if you had bought a 100g bag of Hallertau pellets but I guess you go with what you've got - perhaps next time?

Kevnlis wrote: Will use about 18 litres of water to keep it a bit on the rich side...This is really all I have access to without mail ordering. I will order some stuff for my next brew and try the mash you suggested.

What about things like molassas or licquorice extract?

No - probs. IMHO, molassas and licquorice extract aren't right for a doppelbock, but that's just my opinion.

Kevnlis wrote: Though at $8 per kilo I am not sure I want to use 6 kilos of that malt extract...getting a bit rich for a single brew

Yep, which is why this sort of beer is best suited to all grain brewing - not a slight on extract brewers, but if you get a taste for these beers and you do extract brews, it can get pretty expensive after a while...

For what you've quoted for 6kg of malt extract, I can buy a 25kg sack of fresh German Pilsner malt for an extra $12 which would give me enough malt to make at least 3 batches of doppelbock!!

Cheers,
TL

Trough Lolly wrote: The roasted barley is a good thought - but will probably be more like a schwartzbier than a bock - but that's only a minor issue.

The can of Coopers Bevarian Lager says it is from "two row barley" so I thought adding a bit of roasted cracked barley to the boil might be nice.

Trough Lolly wrote: Didn't the HBS have any Chocolate malt??

Yes they had the 1KG cans of Chocolate Malt Extract, Dark Crystal Extract, and Caramalt Extract. Which would be best?

Trough Lolly wrote: As for the boil, I'd boil the light LME and barley in a stock pot with at least 8L of water and the 3 sachets of Hallertau for at least 30 minutes.

I can boil for an hour thats no hassel if it will work better. But I only have a very small old electric stove which doesn't get very hot or accomodate my 5 litre pot very well. 4 litres is about the most liquid I will be able to use. Is that ok?

Trough Lolly wrote: You'd get a much better hop bittering and flavour profile if you had bought a 100g bag of Hallertau pellets but I guess you go with what you've got - perhaps next time?

The hops sachets are very expensive and that is the only way to buy them here (10 grams at a time) but I will see if I can afford the full $20 for 100 grams. Would I boil them for all of the hour with the light LME and barley?

Trough Lolly wrote: IMHO, molassas and licquorice extract aren't right for a doppelbock, but that's just my opinion.

They offer a very limited amount of stuff at the local HBS. Basicly it's just can kits, liquid and dry malt, the hops sachets, licquorice extract, molasses, lactose, and dextrose. I only suggested them because they are readily available to me.

I did find a place in Brisbane which will freight bulk grains and such up here. It ios a bit expensive for freight ($8 for the first 5 kilos and $3.50 per 5 kilos after that) but as I watch this brew become more and more expensive it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and better to go that way. Though I could never really do a full boil would it be worth my time to buy some of the things you meantioned and do 4 litre boils?

also wanted to add that the LME comes in 500 gram containers so I could just use this amount in the 4 litre boil to have the same effect?

The Morgans 1kg choc malt is actually about 80% munich malt with the rest choc malt so it may be right down your alley. I recently made the following attempt at a marzen using it but I think it ended up more like a bock. Very nice anyway.

http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... php?t=6240

Earle

Welcome to quote city!!

Kevnlis wrote:

Trough Lolly wrote: The roasted barley is a good thought - but will probably be more like a schwartzbier than a bock - but that's only a minor issue.

The can of Coopers Bevarian Lager says it is from "two row barley" so I thought adding a bit of roasted cracked barley to the boil might be nice.

The roasted barley will give more of a bitter bite to the beer rather than a toasted choc / raisin aspect - which is why roasted barley is excellent in dry stouts but not strictly appropriate for a bock - but who know's, a slight grain bitterness aspect to the bock may be quite pleasant.

Kevnlis wrote:

Trough Lolly wrote: Didn't the HBS have any Chocolate malt??

Yes they had the 1KG cans of Chocolate Malt Extract, Dark Crystal Extract, and Caramalt Extract. Which would be best?

For a dark doppelbock, I'd recommend half a can of Choc and half a can of Dark Crystal per batch. For a paler doppelbock, swap the half can of Dark Crystal for half a can of Caramalt.

Kevnlis wrote:

Trough Lolly wrote: As for the boil, I'd boil the light LME and barley in a stock pot with at least 8L of water and the 3 sachets of Hallertau for at least 30 minutes.

I can boil for an hour thats no hassel if it will work better. But I only have a very small old electric stove which doesn't get very hot or accomodate my 5 litre pot very well. 4 litres is about the most liquid I will be able to use. Is that ok?

If 4L is the best you can do, then go for it but keep the sugars down in the pot - the main reason you'd do a boil when you're extract brewing is to get some hop bitterness into the brew to balance out the high malt content in the doppelbock. No more than a kilo of malt extract and all the hops in a 4L pot - grab another pot to do the steeping of the grains and I'll assume that you have more than one ring on the stove - bring the steeped grains up to around 70C from cold - adding the grains to the cold water and stirring regularly to avoid scorching or better still, grab a grain bag from Ross...

Kevnlis wrote:

Trough Lolly wrote: You'd get a much better hop bittering and flavour profile if you had bought a 100g bag of Hallertau pellets but I guess you go with what you've got - perhaps next time?

The hops sachets are very expensive and that is the only way to buy them here (10 grams at a time) but I will see if I can afford the full $20 for 100 grams. Would I boil them for all of the hour with the light LME and barley?

Shite! $20 for 100grams is a complete ripoff! Sorry to read like an ad for Ross, but he'll do a 90g bag of German Hallertau 2006 pellets for $6.50 plus postage! Check it out! And you know you're getting variety and fresh hops to boot...Bloody hell, that's outrageous!
I guess he doesn't sell too many hops so he charges like a wounded bull when somebody does want them - I pay $20 for a 500g bag of German Hop pellets through our club HBS!!

Kevnlis wrote:

Trough Lolly wrote: IMHO, molassas and licquorice extract aren't right for a doppelbock, but that's just my opinion.

They offer a very limited amount of stuff at the local HBS. Basicly it's just can kits, liquid and dry malt, the hops sachets, licquorice extract, molasses, lactose, and dextrose. I only suggested them because they are readily available to me.
I did find a place in Brisbane which will freight bulk grains and such up here. It ios a bit expensive for freight ($8 for the first 5 kilos and $3.50 per 5 kilos after that) but as I watch this brew become more and more expensive it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and better to go that way. Though I could never really do a full boil would it be worth my time to buy some of the things you meantioned and do 4 litre boils?

Yeah, understand the tyranny of distance there....but with some fresh hops and steeped or mini mashed grains, you'll really notice an enormous difference. As for whether or not you should go all grain, it's a problem that most all grain brewers have had to deal with - the relative convenience of kit / extract brewing compared to the complete control afforded to all grain beers. Perhaps that's why a lot of brewers take it one step at a time and steep some grains and then eventually do a small partial mash and before they know it the extract gets substituted away for a larger mash as they get more interested and experienced in grain mashing and buy the necessary equipment to go all grain.
Have a go with part extract / part grain and see where it takes you - it's a fun journey!!

Cheers,
TL

$20 for 100g of hops?????

Get in touch with Ross at Craftbrewer - Link - he sells 90g of hops and they cost $6-8, postage is a few $s if that. I bought 6 x 90g packs recently and that cost me less than $40 delivered the next day!

Not affiliated, just one of his many many happy customers!

EDIT - too slow!

Snap!

Just put this brew in the fermentor. Had to make a few changes for various reasons.

1 can kit Coopers Bevarian Lager $12 ish
1 can Morgans Chocolate Malt extract $8.50
500 grams LLME $4
1KG DDME $8
1KG Dextrose $4
150 grams Roasted Cracked Barley $0.50
50 Grams Goldings hops $6
50 Grams Fugles hops $6

Boiled the LLME with the barley and all hops for 1 hour. poared in fermentor and added all other ingredients. Added water to 23 litres but forgot I had made a yeast culture with the packet from the can kit the night before which was 2 litres of water with 500 grams or so of the dextrose so it ended up being 25 litres

It started bubbling right off and was at about 26 C when I pitched the yeast culture. Here in QLD I average about 20 C (ranges from 16 to 24) in the fermentor so hopefully this will lager alright.

The house smells excellent right now, and I have high hopes for this brew. I am looking into ordering bulk from Ross as suggested (this is actually the place I found in Brisbane as mentioned earlier and his prices are excellent compared to the local guy). Freight looks a bit dear so I will have to calculate weather or not it will actually save me money to buy bulk malt extract from him.

Will update in a couple months once I give this brew a taste and let you all know how it went.

I appreciate all the help and look forward to future brew planning with you fellas! Special thanks to Trough Lolly for answering all my stupid questions and helping me make what looks to be an excellent brew

with all those fermentables, maybe it was a good idea that you put it up to 25L...

Using the ol brewers calculator, and assuming that that morgans chocolate malt can was only 1kg, the alcohol concentration will be about 9.4% (that is including the 500g of dextrose in the starter, but not the additional sugar you'll need for bottling)

If you can, try and keep the temp down a little

James

the 500g yeast starter was part of the original kilo as stated in the recipe part.

How do I go about keeping the temps down in QLD? LOL

Kevnlis wrote:the 500g yeast starter was part of the original kilo as stated in the recipe part.

How do I go about keeping the temps down in QLD? LOL

...grab 4 x 3L PET bottles and 3/4 fill with water and freeze them. Place two on top of the fermenter, either side of the airlock, in the morning. When you get home from work, or in the late afternoon, replace them with the other 2 frozen bottles and put the thawed bottles back in the freezer for tomorrow morning....and so on until fermentation is finished - they will help keep the temp down. A damp towel wrapped around the fermenter will help too...

For a lager, temp control is key - lager yeast likes to ferment under 15C - sure it'll ferment at 25C but it will also add fruity esters and solventy fusels to the beer which you don't want in a doppelbock.

James - doppelbocks are by nature big beers - as you can see from the above BJCP guidelines, we're looking at a starting gravity of over 18 Plato or 1.072 to 1.096 PLUS! This is not a beer for quaffing at a barbie unless somebody else is doing the cooking!!

Cheers,
TL

Thanks TL, I currently have 4x 2 litre juice bottle in the fridge which are 75% full of tank water (we only drink beer, juice and milk here so I didn't have any 3 litre soft drink bottles) the temp is about 17 C and should fall over night so I will pop a couple on top in the morning. My beer fridge holds a steady 8 C from prior testing, will this be a good temp to ferment this brew? I could clear some space in the fridge for it no worries!

Cheers and happy brewing!

Right now I need to know how to rack this brew. I have never heard of racking before but have done a fair bit of reading around the forums and still don't fully understand what it is I should do, or how, or when. Is it the same with all brews because it seems for a lager it is more important?

Thanks in advance guys!