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G'day

might sound like a silly question, but i was wondering if i were to do a extract brew, how would i vary the recipe to get a kolsch instead of a lager, or a pils instead of a lager or vice versa.

Is it mainly dependant on the yeast used, or are there certain ingredients that must be used to get the distinctive flavours of said beers?

I've made an all extract oktoberfest lager, using light liquid malt and specialty grains, but how would i change the basic 3kg (or so) of light liquid malt to get a kolsch, or pilsner?

I know its a silly question, but its bugging me... Cheers...

And if anyone would have a nice extract kolsch or pilsner recipe, id love to try it... Summers coming

James

Malts and certain extraction methods do make a difference to these beer types. But to put it simply, a lager is general style of beer which is fermented and conditioned with a bottom fermenting yeast strain at very low temps.Pilseners (and the German Pils) are a particular type of lager made with soft water and very high hopping rates with low alpha acid noble hops, Koelsch is a German Ale (top fermented) which is also lagered either through cold conditioning and/or through the addition of a lager yeast after ale yeast has done its work..

i thought german pils was made with hard water?

Well from what I've read the areas where German Pils are made usually have hard water but they alter the ph to soften it. Part of the benefits of modern scientific knowledge I guess.

ok, gonna sound like a bigger wanker now (hasn't stopped me in the past ) but isnt hardness determined by calciums and phosphates in the water and not the ph? Plus i thought that DAB for example is made with extremely hard water, and that's why its such a sharp clean beer?

Do the calcium and magnesium levels not determine the hardness and PH?

Soft water makes a good Pilsner. At least in Wisconsin it does! Germany as well I am almost certain.

A kolsch is an ale fermented under lager conditions to put it simply

James L wrote:G'day

might sound like a silly question, but i was wondering if i were to do a extract brew, how would i vary the recipe to get a kolsch instead of a lager, or a pils instead of a lager or vice versa.

It it mainly dependant on the yeast used, or are there certain ingredients that must be used to get the distinctive flavours of said beers?

I've made an all extract oktoberfest lager, using light liquid malt and specialty grains, but how would i change the basic 3kg (or so) of light liquid malt to get a kolsch, or pilsner?

I know its a silly question, but its bugging me... Cheers...

And if anyone would have a nice extract kolsch or pilsner recipe, id love to try it... Summers coming

James

G'day James - it's not a silly question at all! You actually answered your own question! The issue very much becomes one of flavour. A Koelsch is a German Pale Ale - but fermented like a lager. It's a very delicate and difficult beer to accurately reproduce at home. There's an excellent article on this beer style - click here...
The German Beer Institute also has an article re Koelsch that's worth reading here - http://www.germanbeerinstitute.com/K%F6lsch.html
A pilsener is a type of lager - and they vary greatly depending on the ingredients used. This is the major reason, IMHO, why some brewers stick to generally accepted guidelines, such as the BJCP guidelines - not to be beer nazi's but to help demystify the subtle differences that exist with certain beers that sit within a particular category - eg Lager.
So, yes, to make a different type of lager involves subtle variations in the grainbill, hops and yeast used. And this is a major reason why all grain brewers, who have complete control over their ingredients, are able to more accurately make those subtle changes - it's not a beersnob thing, it's just a manufacturing process issue.
Broadly speaking, you can make a koelsch with a lager kit, but you'll not get quite as close to a true copy as an all grain version made with the right german lager malt will.
Cheers,
TL

gibbocore wrote:ok, gonna sound like a bigger wanker now (hasn't stopped me in the past ) but isnt hardness determined by calciums and phosphates in the water and not the ph? Plus i thought that DAB for example is made with extremely hard water, and that's why its such a sharp clean beer?

Yeah more calciums and phosphates = harder water = higher ph (more alkaline)

Less calciums and less phosphates = softer water = lower ph (more acidic)

Gardeners put dolomite (calcium carbonate + magnesium) or lime (calcium carbonate) in their soil to make it less acid. Calcium is an alkaline agent that affects ph.

wildschwein wrote:

gibbocore wrote:ok, gonna sound like a bigger wanker now (hasn't stopped me in the past ) but isnt hardness determined by calciums and phosphates in the water and not the ph? Plus i thought that DAB for example is made with extremely hard water, and that's why its such a sharp clean beer?

Yeah more calciums and phosphates = harder water = higher ph (more alkaline)

Less calciums and less phosphates = softer water = lower ph (more acidic)

Gardeners put dolomite (calcium carbonate + magnesium) or lime (calcium carbonate) in their soil to make it less acid. Calcium is an alkaline agent that affects ph.

ahhh, got ya. I was under the impression that you could change the hardness of your water without adjusting the ph. Palmer has confused me, but then again that doesnt take much.

Doesn't the PH control the amount of phosphates that can be in the water and is not directly determined by the phosphates present? I always thought it is just the calsium and magnesium that determine PH and hardness.

I should get a chemistry degree, then maybe I could understand half this stuff properly and make a decent brew!

Thanks a heap TL, that info was bloody interesting...

So effectively, a kolsch is a beer made with lager ingredients but brewed at 18-20C using a pale ale yeast... then is cold conditioned for a couple of months...

That sounds very nice indeed... I'm not going to try to emulate the germans, but its opened my eyes (a little more) to the possibilities of brewing.

Cheers again TL

James

gibbocore wrote:

wildschwein wrote:

gibbocore wrote:ok, gonna sound like a bigger wanker now (hasn't stopped me in the past ) but isnt hardness determined by calciums and phosphates in the water and not the ph? Plus i thought that DAB for example is made with extremely hard water, and that's why its such a sharp clean beer?

Yeah more calciums and phosphates = harder water = higher ph (more alkaline)

Less calciums and less phosphates = softer water = lower ph (more acidic)

Gardeners put dolomite (calcium carbonate + magnesium) or lime (calcium carbonate) in their soil to make it less acid. Calcium is an alkaline agent that affects ph.

ahhh, got ya. I was under the impression that you could change the hardness of your water without adjusting the ph. Palmer has confused me, but then again that doesnt take much.

Yeah, it may be possible. I think I've reached the limit of my knowledge about ph here. I have seen beer recipes where people add gypsum to soft water to make it hard but that is form of calcium too, which I assume raises the ph. I'm not sure of the effect of phospates on water maybe they could alter hardness and not ph. Don't know for sure though, but anything to do with calcium certainly will raise ph.

calcium carbonate is chalk... this might make for some interesting experiments. what kind of beer styles lend themselves well to hard water?

Most English brown ales are traditionally made with hard water. Irish stouts too. Some dark German lagers I believe are also made with hardish water.

KEG wrote:calcium carbonate is chalk... this might make for some interesting experiments. what kind of beer styles lend themselves well to hard water?

I may do some weird stuff...but I can't see myself EVER putting chalk into a brew

well, it's calcium carbonate... just need to work out the quantity, i'd think only a gram or two. it'd dissolve completely i reckon.

Hi James. Good question.

Soft water is good for producing lagers and pilseners, Hard Water is better for making ales.
A mineral content of 0-50 ppm is considered soft water.

To Make a good Czech (Bohemian) Pilsener:
Use soft water
only Saaz hops
and 80-90% pilsner malt
IBU 35-45
Czech/bohemian yeast

German Pils are very similar, but can have Saaz, Tettnanger, Hersbruker or Hallertau hops.
IBU 30 - 40
German yeast.


Hope this helps a bit.
(Can you tell that I like Pilseners )


Cheers,
C

can you get liquid pilsner malt extract?, is it much different from very light liquid malt extract? that would be lovely... or would i have to go a can or two of a pilsner kit to make my pilsner? can i use 1.5kg VLLME and add 2kg of a pilsner grain and do a mini mash type thing?

I'm just not confident enough (and dont have the room) to do an AG brew yet.

James L wrote:.... can i use 1.5kg DME and add 2kg of a pilsner grain and do a mini mash type thing?

Bloody oath you can

You can get close to AG with this method.
The more grain, the closer you get.

Just use light DME or LME.
(There is no "pilsner" DME)

Its difficult to make a good pils with a kit.

The Extract or Partial method will result in a beer that is 500% better than any kit beer.

Make sure you use a good yeast too. If you can do these things, the beer will be up ther with the best. (one day I will get there)
Good luck, dude.

Cheers