serious haze

[sonictruth]

a couple of weeks ago i did my first all extract. it tastes great however i have what i think is some serious protein haze. just wondering if anyone can shed some light on what i did wrong. the recipe is as follows:

Amber ale
10L boil:

1.4kg LDME (start of boil)
1kg LDME (end of boil)
200gm light crystal
200gm dark crystal
60gm roast barley
100gm carapils

15gm POR (60min)
20gm styrian goldings (15min)
13gm willamette (15min)
17gm styrian goldings (5min)
(it was a bit of a freezer clean out with the hops)

topped up to 23l
white labs english ale yeast

ok....so everything went fine with the boil. I was a little nervous that i might stuff up the bittering but it seems to be fine. The yeast took a couple of days to take off because i didnt have time to make a big starter but it got there in the end. so after the first week i thought the haze was the yeast being slow to flocculate so i racked and waited for it to clear but after week 2 it was still pretty hazy. still thinking it was yeast i decided to cold condition it for a week at about 3c to drop out the yeast. After this didnt work i started to suspect it was protein, but it tasted fine so i bottled it and after about a week i can see the yeast settling in the bottle and the haze is still there.

like i said it tastes fine so im not that worried but just wondering if anyone can shed some light on what to do better next time. ive made many kit+specialty grain beers before and they are all fine however this was the first time i have used carapils could this be the prob? or is there something in my method that is causing it?

thanks for your help guys

josh

[Chris]

Did you crush your own grain by any chance?

[Trough Lolly]

....and how did you use the grains - were they steeped around 70C? The boil will impact on permanent haze, thanks to the interaction between the malt and hops in the boil. Did you use Weyermann Carapils or Briess? And you're certain that the grains were crystal malt and not base malt?

A bit more info on what happened before you got to the boil step would be helpful.

Cheers,
TL

[sonictruth]

all grains were crushed by Ross and ive only heard good things about him so i assume we can rule that out.

I steeped all the grain at 66 degrees for somewhere between half an hour and an hour and then strained it all off for the start of the boil. this is the same method that ive used for many brews before and never had a problem

the carapils is weyermann and unless ross has made a mistake the crystal is definately crystal...

hope that clears things up....any ideas now?

[Chris]

Firstly, why that long on the steep?

20mins is fine. 30mins if you want to 'make sure.'

[Old Gil]

More of a question than anything else, I'm mainly a kit & kaboodle brewer with the odd extract up my sleeve but I know that the all grain guys do a protein rest after mashing, would that have anything to do with it or could it be the length of steeping, or does the length of steeping not matter

[warra48]

More of a question than anything else, I'm mainly a kit & kaboodle brewer with the odd extract up my sleeve but I know that the all grain guys do a protein rest after mashing, would that have anything to do with it or could it be the length of steeping, or does the length of steeping not matter

A protein rest is not done after the mash, it's actually part of it.

It simply involves doughing in the grains and resting the mash at a temperature of ± 50 to 55ºC for about 30 minutes. The temperature of the mash is then raised to the normal range of ± 63 to 68ºC, whether by infusion of further water or decoction, and rested at that temperature for about another 30 minutes.

Depending on the malts used, a multi-rest mash may improve efficiency in extracting all the goodies out of the malt.

For crystal etc malts, a simple steep for about 30 minutes is OK.
TL has written a number of good posts on his process for using specialty grains such as crystal malt, such as this one.
http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... lly#p74387

[sonictruth]

the long steep was mainly because i was doing something else and got a bit side tracked but if figured that it wouldnt really matter if it was in there for up to an hour. If i was doing a full mash with the same specialty grains then they would be in there for an hour anyway so it shouldnt make any difference here should it?

[warra48]

the long steep was mainly because i was doing something else and got a bit side tracked but if figured that it wouldnt really matter if it was in there for up to an hour. If i was doing a full mash with the same specialty grains then they would be in there for an hour anyway so it shouldnt make any difference here should it?

Fair point. I agree, and I usually mash any specialty grains in my full mash along with base malts.

[rwh]

It simply involves doughing in the grains and resting the mash at a temperature of ± 50 to 55ºC for about 30 minutes.

OT: ± means "plus or minus" and is normally used for something like "fifty plus or minus five degrees C" (50 ± 5 °C), which denotes a range of 45 to 55 degrees. Perhaps the symbol you wanted was the tilde (~) which means "approximately"? Perhaps this should be in the "Notation Nazi" thread?

On Topic: Your steep sounds fine to me. Generally people get into trouble when they steep base malts or other starchy grains which cannot self-convert. This can cause dextrins to end up in your beer which can cause haze.

[Trough Lolly]

...Generally people get into trouble when they steep base malts or other starchy grains which cannot self-convert. This can cause dextrins to end up in your beer which can cause haze.

Yep, hence my query about the Carapils - I feared some Briess Dextrin Malt may have been used. If Ross is the grist supplier, then the grains and crush will be fine.

....Hmmm, I'll have to think a bit more on this one. The steep looks good, temp and duration are fine....assuming the sparge wasn't done with boiling hot water you should be ok....can you remember if you got a clean wort into the kettle - ie, next to no particulate matter, eg husks, stalks going into the kettle after the steep?

What form were the hops (eg, pellets/whole/plugs etc) - and their age?
Is the beer cloudy at room temp as well as chilled? You might be looking at yeast haze not protein haze if the beer's not clear at room temps? Were you using WLP 002 or 005/006/007 etc??

Cheers,
TL

[Kevnlis]

I have used the WLP002 and it is a very good clear yeast. If this is what you used I would have to guess wild yeast infection. This is supported by the fact that it had a prolonged lag time and haze at higher ale fermenting temperatures after a total of 3 weeks bulk storage.

[sonictruth]

grains werent steeped with boiling water.....it was about 70degrees. no husks or anything made it into the boil....they were strained with the same strainer that i have used for my other beers.

the hops were all plugs and no more than 2 or 3 months old.

the yeast was WLP002 english ale

the beer wasnt clear after I CCed it for a week so i was ruling out yeast haze and it isnt clear at room temp either.

as for an infection.....well i thought of this as well considering the extra time it took to start fermenting however everything i've read indicates that if you have an infection you will know about it when you taste it and this tasted fine out of the fermenter so i had ruled that out too...

im going to put one in the fridge tonight and see how it tastes out of the bottle......as long as it tastes fine im quite happy to drink it but i would still like to adjust my methods so that i dont have the same problem next time. assuming it is just protein haze would something like irish moss do the trick?

[Kevnlis]

Actually that is not entirely true. Not all wild yeast will harm the flavour of your beer. Some simply throw off a yeast haze which is unsightly and may have a bit of a bready/stale/yeasty/sour flavour, or even no flavour at all.

[rwh]

Yeah, I vote wild yeast as well. From what you've told us, everything else sounds fine.

[Chris]

It seems like the logical conclusion.

[Trough Lolly]

Ok, I'm nearly there - one more question!
Tell me about your yeast - was it a fresh tube?

....I'm leaning towards strain mutation rather than wild yeast infection.

Cheers,
TL

[sonictruth]

ok now you might be hitting on something.

the yeast was the 5th generation of a tube i bought 12 months ago. it was the last one that i had before i bought some fresh stuff, however in my batch previous to this one i used yeast that was collected at the same time as the one in question and this beer turned out nice and clear.....

[Kevnlis]

How long had it been in storage? What was your method for storing it?

[Trough Lolly]

ok now you might be hitting on something.

the yeast was the 5th generation of a tube i bought 12 months ago. it was the last one that i had before i bought some fresh stuff, however in my batch previous to this one i used yeast that was collected at the same time as the one in question and this beer turned out nice and clear.....

Bingo - your processes were sound, the yeast was still able to ferment the beer but there was some mutation in the colony that whilst not totally trashing the batch, did affect clarity of the beer. My vote is cell mutation...

Cheers,
TL

Edit: yeast ferments wort, not yeast!!