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Trough Lolly in [url=http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8058]Expired Hops thread[/url] wrote:Just don't tell Kevnlis that you're thinking of doing all dry extract brews - you'll cop a flogging!!

Cheers,
TL

Hahaha... thanks TL!

In my experience dry extract beers are thin and lack malt character. I try make up the malt bill with as much liquid as possible, never less than 2/3.

Have a go, it is possible you will enjoy the result and think me mad!

Haven't we discussed this before? Surely it's the brand that's important (and by extension of that, their malt and mashing procedures) rather than the fact that it's dried or liquid. Certain breweries will mash higher than others, with a consequent difference in fermentability. It's one reason AG is more flexible as you can control this part of the process.

I mean dry malt extract has been processed slightly more (to remove the last 20% of the water) which will probably slightly affect the freshness, but I'd be very surprised if it had an impact on fermentability. Have you done a comparison of say Coopers liquid against Coopers dry? Or are we talking generic bulk dry extract vs Coopers liquid?

I have only ever used Coopers liquid and Coopers dry (except for the Morgans Master range and some dry spray wheat once).

I assumed the same as you rwh, but I honestly can tell a big difference between a beer made with the liquid and one made with the dry extract.

Fair enough then.

Kevnlis wrote:I have only ever used Coopers liquid and Coopers dry (except for the Morgans Master range and some dry spray wheat once).

I assumed the same as you rwh, but I honestly can tell a big difference between a beer made with the liquid and one made with the dry extract.

How would you describe the difference? Is it a cloying or dextrinous sensation or do you detect a different flavour profile. Obviously there will be a difference in a beer made with the same quantity of each extract as the DME will give a higher OG, but I would have thought that a freshly hopped batch with quality yeast would make the "difference" all that much harder to pickup? Perhaps a lightly hopped beer is more "obvious" since this style of beer is much more dependant on the malt giving the flavour profile?

Cheers,
TL

The beers with DME seems to have less body than the beers with LME. I would think that since LME is actually ~20% water it would make a thinner beer when used in the same amount as DME but thsis not my experience. Perhaps the DME is mashed at a lower temp to make it less dextrinous and easier to spray dry? Perhaps it has to do with freshness or the way each are handled (both internaly and in freight etc.)? Also seem to get more malt comming through in the liquid. I have never done a side by side, but over the years I have used both quite a bit and always found better results with liquid.

I once used Morgans dry sprayed wheat malt, which flowed like liquid it was so fine, and that came out very nice compared to the Coopers dry malt extract which is very course. Maybe that has something to do with it?

I have had all sorts of ideas over the years about what causes this, never did find any info on differences between the two though. Maybe it would be worth an e-mail to Coopers?

Kevnlis wrote:Perhaps the DME is mashed at a higher temp to make it less dextrinous and easier to spray dry?

I assume you mean lower temp.

Kevnlis wrote:I have had all sorts of ideas over the years about what causes this, never did find any info on differences between the two though. Maybe it would be worth an e-mail to Coopers?

Sounds interesting, please post the results here!

I disagree.. i think dry malt extract is better...

This has been split out of the Expired Hops thread.

Cheers,
Greg

rwh wrote:

Kevnlis wrote:Perhaps the DME is mashed at a higher temp to make it less dextrinous and easier to spray dry?

I assume you mean lower temp.

I did, thanks.

As for testing, whos gonna do it?

I had a look at my notes, from what I had noted or could recall there seems to be little difference in FG's between Coopers LDME & LLME.
I had a 20Kg bag of Bintani LDME that gave me a couple of points higher FG's.

I think that it is as RWH has said- the differences are in the brands, not the types.

Cheers,
Greg

...agreed Greg. And I think there's also a possibility that the difference may also be more obvious or apparent with lightly hopped beers...At the risk of contradicting you Kev, I found DME to be a more "stronger" tasting malt extract than the same brand of LME...I guess it's a matter of your own taste preferences. But then again, it's all academic to all grain brewers!

Cheers,
TL

Hi guys,
I'm early on in my skill development and as a result trying to read and learn as much as possible. Up to tryign all extract brewing with Spec grains (haven't done one yet but have recipes formulate detc). One of my queries was around whether to use DME or LME. I came across Basicbrewing.com and their podcasts which I've found to be very good. They had one with a bloke who was a master brewer who was very experienced in extract brewing. (the brewery he worked at only had limited capacity so consequently they used a fair bit of extract). Anyway, he basically said that he preferred DME due to the freshness of it and that you need less of it (1kg LME = 0.8 kg DME) The freshness bit got me though, as he said the liquids , as we know with kits, can be stored for quite a while etc, heat fluctuations etc.

Anyway, I'm going to try all DME brews and see what happens, thought you might be interested and check out basicbrewing.com podcasts if you haven't already!

Cheers

Scooter

I guess all our experiences vary.
I only did one brew with all dry extract, and I would rate it as one of my worst. It was an attempt to clone a Coopers Sparkling Ale, using POR hop flowers and harvested Coopers yeast. It took me 6 months to drink it through gritted teeth. (I drink all my disasters, I'm down to my last 3 longnecks of an Amarillo Pale Ale i brewed last year as my 2nd AG, and it tastes like a freshly mowed lawn).
However, I found the brews I did with liquid malt to be very easy to drink. Maybe that is because I was also doing small mini mashes with some grains and specialty grains as part of the brew.
Each to their own, and what works for you has gotta be good.

Hi all,
Just a quick query, maybe a stupid question. On this DME v LME thing. Why do some recipes have some of both, eg. 1kg Liquid ME and say 1.5kg dry ME? What is the story with using bits of both? Doesn't it just do the same thing? Doesn't mixing the 2 forms mean you have to muck around with the utilisation to work out how much you need. i.e. 1kg LME = 0.75kg DME, Please put me straight on this one!!

Cheers
Scooter

The best tip I've been given on dry malt is to swirl the fermenter to dissolve it (rather than stirring it). Until someone mentioned that I'd been dealing with clumps that were hard to break up.

Still, I prefer liquid malt due to the extra body it gives my beers. I don't know the science behind the production of either (and have only used Coopers and Morgans malt) but I find liquid a million times easier to use and able to give a more satisfying result.

I've never made a beer using a mixture of dry and liquid malts. I'm also curious as the benefits of this approach. What does it add to the beer?


Cheers,

Throsby

It is usually a cost factor. Most HBS sell a kilo of DME for the same price as LME, but you get approximately 20% higher yield from the DME.

I recently had a conversation with a university professor who got his phd in spray drying. He was of the impression that any sheering of the dextrins by the spray drier would be minimal and most likely not percieved... but he did mention that often the malt extract used to spray dry is from a mash done at a lower temp to make the process easier. Which would mean the product is more fermentable and of course contributes less mouthfeel to the final product.

Speaking of Liquid Malt - I visited the two HB shops in Newcastle the other day and both of them informed me that Morgans are discontinuing their 1kg tins of LM.

They are also consolidating their range from 7 varieties down to 5.

What a shame - I quite like Caramalt as a different flavour, and currently have a beer with their Dark Crystal LM in the fermenter.


Not sure of the details of the new range, sorry.


Throsby

Throsby wrote:Speaking of Liquid Malt - I visited the two HB shops in Newcastle the other day and both of them informed me that Morgans are discontinuing their 1kg tins of LM.

They are also consolidating their range from 7 varieties down to 5.

What a shame - I quite like Caramalt as a different flavour, and currently have a beer with their Dark Crystal LM in the fermenter.


Not sure of the details of the new range, sorry.


Throsby

No need to miss out on the Caramalt flavour if you're prepared to steep some crystal malt in a pot...

Cheers,
TL