Morgans Ironbark Dark Ale

[Berger]

Hey there,
I've been having this idea in my head to put down a brew for winter, I was thinking now would be the time, here is the stuff I was thinking of using:

1 Morgans Ironbark
1 Coopers real ale
1 kg Mogans Choc malt
s-04 ale yeast

Should finish up around 7% alc

Thing is I don't know if it is a good idea to use a tin of coopers real ale for liquid LME, should I be using unhopped extract? In either case how much hops would I need? What type and how long in boil? I was thinking Goldings for aroma hops and no bittering, I wouldn't mind it being malty but should still be drinkable.

Would it be OK to leave out priming sugar all together and wait patiently? Or perhaps prime with honey instead?

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Berger

[FazerPete]

If you want to do a toucan, I suggest you use a kit with a bit more hopping than Real Ale. Dark Ale and Stout goes well together.

[Berger]

yeah I been thinking that but I was worried the stout would overpower the dark ale, I would like the ironbark to be the dominant flavour.
Is there a particular stout kit that would be good with the ironbark?

[FazerPete]

I haven't done a toucan with the Morgans kit but I've done a couple of Coopers stout + Coopers dark ale in the past. Throw some Fuggles in with it and it comes out a very drinkable drop for winter.

[earle]

The Ironbark Dark has a bitterness of 25 and the Real Ale a touch over 30 so combined you would have about 55IBU to balance the malt from the three tins of malt. If you're after something malty tasting I don't think I would add any more bittering. I did a toucan with coopers dark ale and cascade choc mahogany porter and while I like bitter beers this was too bitter for me. Your recipe has more malt to balance the bitterness so definitely is worth a try.

[Berger]

Thanks heaps, sounds like its worth a try, I'll give it a go. What about the priming sugar? I have heard about people leaving it out all together and wait for 6 months or so for it to carbonate.

[FazerPete]

Can't really help you there because I skipped bottling and went straight to kegs. From what I've read though, I wouldn't skip it but just cut down the amount.

[Berger]

OK, thanks
Think I'll carbonate a few with honey and a few with dried LME and see the difference
An IBU of 55 sounds pretty bitter to me, you reckon I should brew it with 1.5 kg of liquid LME instead and add hops accordingly or find a different kit to real ale that's lightly hopped? What bitterness should I aim for to make it malty but not to a sickening degree? I was thinking low to mid 40's

Cheers
Berger

[FazerPete]

Toucan mixes aren't really session beers because of the extra bitterness and flavour but it depends on your taste. If you don't like bitter stuff then just use a can of unhopped extract but I recommend giving a toucan a try for something different.

I don't really know what the IBU on a dark ale & stout mix is because Beersmith doesn't really handle hopped extract very well so it's always a bit of a guess. I can tell you from experience though that it's not really that bitter in flavour and is quite drinkable especially when the weather is a bit cooler.

[Berger]

All right thanks, I ended up getting the Ironbark, 1kg Morgans choc malt and 500g Liquid DME and I will add 15g of fuggles, I'll cut it back to 16 L to get the alc I want. Will definitely try your stout+dark ale next, thanks for your help will let you know what it turns out like.

Cheers
Berger

[Bizier]

I am going to second Earle re: bitterness. Yours sounds much nicer to my particular palette:

Ironbark, 1kg Morgans choc malt and 500g Liquid DME and I will add 15g of fuggles, I'll cut it back to 16 L

I did a coopers dark + stout (+ 40g or so of fuggles), and I just can't drink the damn stuff, even after 6 months. But I will see if it is drinkable after another 6.

If you are using S04, maybe try using at least 2 packets and definitely re-hydrate, or make a big starter, or it might end up a bit sweet. And if it is not drying out after a bunch of weeks, maybe (after racking?) pitch a second type of yeast like nottingham to finish the job.

500g Liquid DME

[Berger]

I have savoured some s04 from previous brews in 330mL bottles, probably half beer half yeast, how many would I need and how big a yeast starter? 1 bottle and 100mL malt + 1L water?

[Bizier]

If you are trying to make a quality high-alc ageing beer, just get fresh yeast. Dry yeast is cheap enough to do this. I would just get a twin pack from craftbrewer or two from your LHBS and pitch both when properly rehydrated.

If you are starting yeast from a tiny amount, and your sanitation and process is up to scratch (I am still yet to do this, even with ol' coopers yeast), do it with a proper decent English strain (though most English commercials are filtered). No point going to painful lengths over dry yeast that is cheap and readily available. IMO of course - your boat, whatever makes it float.

[Berger]

So you don't reckon I should recycle the yeast? I am not using tiny amounts I have bottled the slurry after bottling beer so there should be about 100mL in each bottle. I have bottled the yeast from using Muntons Gold in brews as well, no good to recycle either?
I read somewhere you can recycle yeast about 3 times before it starts to mutate so I figured I would be OK

[Bizier]

That is different, I thought you meant tiny amounts out of your bottled beer...

If your sanitation is top notch, then it is fine, but I'd suggest you might want to "wash it" to keep only healthy cells, because your fermentation might take a little while to totally finish up, and in my limited knowledge of the phenomenon, you may actually be risking off flavours from yeast autolysis if you transfer dead yeast in with your live yeast.

So with that in mind, if the beer is destined for ageing, you might just be better going with new yeast, and use your saved yeast for lower gravity quick drinking beer.

I haven't dabbled too far into yeast re-use, I have a couple refridgerated but I want my process to be bulletproof before I risk infection. I have re-used yeasts quickly, and had a real good run from a pack of 1272 American Ale II... but there was no storage involved, and I was able to top-crop it for the next batch (had 4 fermenters going with APAs).

[Berger]

OK, sounds like I should read more into it before I start using my refurbed yeasts, I'll get a few packs of S-04, my HBS doesn't carry specialty yeasts like wyeast only the standard stuff, he will get it in for ya if you ask though.
So you say rehydrate 2 packs and use, or 1 pack and a starter? How good is muntons gold and what quantity is recommended?

[Bizier]

I think you have me a bit wrong, and I wasn't trying to scare you. I am just too scared to do yeast farming until I am ready, but that is just me being super paranoid. I have never used a Muntons yeast.

I think if you do a 1 pack starter, do a large-ish one like 2.3L (for evaporation) with 200g malt extract boiled for 15 mins, chilled and pitch. Get it to where the krausen starts to subside, and refridgerate for a bit to clear it up, then decant liquid off top and pitch a bunch of healthy yeast.

It is a pity you are not adding some grain to that, because I think even 100g of dark crystal may add something great. I used grain on my third batch, and have never brewed again without... it is just too damn good for the amount of effort involved, and adds a nice dimension that will change with age. (hint hint )

[Berger]

Lucky you got me just before I left work, I went by the HBS and got 200g of Dark crystal malt, I'll give that a go, as to refurbishing the yeast I thought I wouldn't wanna risk ruining a good brew and since I have only used one bottle of refurbed yeast in my lifetime, I'll experiment with it another time.

With crystal malt you only need to boil/steep it, right? No mashing? Was thinking of boiling unhopped malt in 4 L water for 20 mins, add 7g fuggles @ 5 mins, 7g fuggles @ 15mins, where does the crystal fit in best in this?

[Bizier]

I'd keep the dark crystal to 100g, because I don't know how much unfermentable sugar is in the kit + cans and you don't want it to be too sweet.

I don't mean to scare either, use the saved yeast.. but maybe on a beer you might drink a little earlier. I could be totally wrong, remember this is the net.

You steep specialty grains like crystal in your setup (you'd throw them into a mash if you are mashing), then you boil the 'liquor' but not the grain - look it up for how to steep, easy as & smells awesome (except carapils). In fact mashing is basically just more controlled steeping, and if you have modern style grain with more enzymes, you should be fine to do that as well when you feel ready, and as long as there is extract involved, you can stuff up and it will still be awesome.

Add some malt to your boil, but not too much, or your hops will not show up in the brew. Also liquid extract doesn't need to be boiled. I am unsure of the rate of water to malt, maybe you can do a search on that too, keyword being isomerisation. But don't worry if it gets technical, your kit is the majority of your hops, so if you get it entirely wrong, it is all still cool. I'd even say you could up the hops by another 7g each addition and it would still be balanced toward malty, your hop additions will mellow as the beer ages, so I say go a little higher.

The biggest thing will be to get your yeast to eat up all of that malt and finish without being too sweet. Def use a hydrometer on this one.

I am really interested to hear how this one comes out Berger.

[Berger]

Ok, I put it on last night, here's the recipe
1Morgans Ironbark
1kg morgans choc malt
500g Liquid LME
100g dark crystal malt steeped 30 mins then strained
3x8g fuggles in extract from crystal and 250g LLME 1@15 mins, 2@5mins, 3@3mins, then turned off stove and steeped 10 mins
Strained into fermenter and dissolved remaining malts
Water up to 14L added yeast starter, water up to 16L
OG 1068, expected FG 1019. Sample was NICE, very promising, I'll let u know the outcome. It had plenty of krausen this morning. Temp 21-22 deg