Grains for a Pils?

[inark]

Hey Guys,

I was going through the G&G and CB sites looking for some grains to use for my next batch which will be a Pilsner (i am doing 2 Pilsners, one with 28g of Saaz pellets and another just a plain straight kit to see the direct diff) but all of the Pilsner grains are for Mashing and im not even close to doing an AG yet or any mashing for that matter so wanted to know if it will make it any less a Pilsner if I steeped in another type of grain? And if i can use another one what would you recommend for a Pilsner?

What i am using:

1 can of Thomas Coopers Brewmaster Selection Pilsner
1kg LLME
500g Coopers Brew Enhancer 1
28g Saaz hops
Wyeast 2278 - Czech Pilsner

[Bizier]

I would say Carahell, I use this a bit and like the flavour it gives.

BUT that just won't be a pils.
I HIGHLY RECOMMEND just getting a kilo (or whatever you can fit in a steeping bag) of cracked Weyermann Pilsener malt and just TRYING to mash if you have access to a thermometer. Your mash temp won't be critical because you have your extracts all giving the fermentable sugars. If you can keep it between 60 and 70 for an hour, then keep a light boil for 90 mins it should give a true pilsner flavour and no DMS. Easier than you think, and very tasty.

BTW I have a sore spot with non-traditional pilsners. I think they should just be called something else like summer lager or whatever.

[inark]

ok well i have a thermometer... will try... i spose it cant hurt it if it doesnt work can it?

[Trough Lolly]

Not wanting to teach you how to suck eggs, but....looking at your recipe, the best thing you can do for your beer is to make sure that you have an active starter from your smackpack. It never ceases to amaze me how many brewers ask me how to make a pils like the "real thing" when they have an excellent grist and hop schedule and fall down at the last hurdle with underpitched, tired or just plain wrong yeast.

I'm not being a beer snob but based on my experience, you must ensure that you have three things in order if you really want to make a good lager / pilsner - patience, temperature control and fresh ingredients. Take away any one of these factors and the risk of mediocrity soars!

....and a mini mash with a kilo of pilsner malt is an excellent suggestion - click here if you want some background on a partial mash...

Cheers,
TL

[inark]

So what would you suggest for someone who isnt confident enough to do an AG?

Is there another yeast that would be better to use? im not trying to make it like the real thing i just want a good tasting Pils like beer that isnt a simple boring tasting kit. I would have thought the yeast i picked would be perfect for a pils?

[Trough Lolly]

The yeast you picked is fine - I recommend you make at least 1L of starter from the smackpack to get a good start on the fermentation of the resultant wort.

All grain is not hard - it's an expense to buy the gear but basically you can do a mini mash buy mixing some base malt in a large pot to deliver a substantial grain flavour improvement to the beer kit based brew. If you don't want to do a mash, you need to steep some crystal malt - and there's no end to the debate on what crystal malt is appropriate for a pilsner, but I can recommend a modest quantity, say 250g, of Caramunich I and boil the resultant liquor in a pot with some Hallertauer hops to really beef up the kit.

Cheers,
TL

[Bizier]

Good point TL, you want a whole bunch of yeast to be able to make the lager in a relaxed fashion so there are no off flavours from stressing it out.

And, if you have a thermometer, you can mash. And you can do it in a pot on the stove if you don't have an esky. It has been said before "if you can steep, you can mash".

Caramunich is a better suggestion than Carahell too if are steeping. Listen to TL there.

And you are not doing all grain with the pilsner grain, just a mini mash. Your main fermentables are from extract, so it is pretty hard to stuff up if you follow basic instructions. Go forth in confidence I say.

[inark]

ok.... will give it a go.

thanks guys

[Bizier]

Awesome!

I am keen to hear how it goes.

[inark]

ok... i just placed my order.
Instead of doing a plain kit and a kit with a few extras ive decided to do this:

1 can of Thomas Coopers Brewmaster Selection Pilsner
250g Caramunich I (Steeped)
1kg LLME
500g Dex
30g Czech Saaz Hops
Wyeast 2278 - Czech Pilsner

and the other i will try this:

1 can of Thomas Coopers Brewmaster Selection Pilsner
1kg Pilsner (Bohemian) Malt (Weyermann) (Mashed)
1kg LLME
500g Dex
30g Czech Saaz Hops
Wyeast 2278 - Czech Pilsner

I have a 30l pot, tall glass thermometer and a large esky so will try this whole mashing thing and see how it goes.

If i can taste a reasonable difference and dont kill myself or others, then i will start slowly building up a decent mash system... any excuse really cause i want to set up something other then a bunch of plastic drums anyway

[Bizier]

Maybe back the 1kg of LDME off a little if you want it to be drinkable like a pilsner, they are always around 4-5%abv

I'd suggest 500g LDME and 500g dex

And with the pilsner grain one, maybe go 400g of each (I am purely guessing, others will have better advice if you ask)

This is a fantastic experiment, I am keen to hear what you think when you do a side by side tasting of the two brews.

Now, if I had a large esky and a large pot... first things first

[lethaldog]

Not to be a smart ass but i dont know personally of any comercial style pilsners that would use dex in them, i say leave out the dex and just use malt

[Bizier]

But which pilsners use LDME?
LDME often finishes too sweet for my tastes, especially when I have used it in lagers.

I say keep dex to maintain the dryness that I see as critical in a pils.

But I am also arguing for the sake of it.

[inark]

i'll go with the 50/50 for these... see how it goes.

[Trough Lolly]

ok... i just placed my order.
Instead of doing a plain kit and a kit with a few extras ive decided to do this:

1 can of Thomas Coopers Brewmaster Selection Pilsner
250g Caramunich I (Steeped)
1kg LLME
500g Dex
30g Czech Saaz Hops
Wyeast 2278 - Czech Pilsner

and the other i will try this:

1 can of Thomas Coopers Brewmaster Selection Pilsner
1kg Pilsner (Bohemian) Malt (Weyermann) (Mashed)
1kg LLME
500g Dex
30g Czech Saaz Hops
Wyeast 2278 - Czech Pilsner

I have a 30l pot, tall glass thermometer and a large esky so will try this whole mashing thing and see how it goes.

If i can taste a reasonable difference and dont kill myself or others, then i will start slowly building up a decent mash system... any excuse really cause i want to set up something other then a bunch of plastic drums anyway

G'day Inark,
You'll end up with a million suggestions, including mine, but if you want to more clearly differentiate between a kit/extract/steep batch and a kit/partial mash batch, I'd change the 2nd brew to read 2kg pils malt and drop the LLME and Dex - use them for priming sugars. They should both turn out very nice. Let us know how you go...Keep a close eye on the fermentation temp - it's a nice yeast but you need to keep it cool.

Cheers,
TL

[inark]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Your input is always welcome TL. (as is everyone elses)

Luck would have it that i placed my online order last night and just happened to order exactly 2kgs of the Pilsner Bohemian Malt... Ive never used Dex for priming, i normally use table sugar (not sure what you real brewers call it). Do i still use the same amount? ie. that little 2 sided sugar scoop thing?

Will it matter if i use 2 x 60l fermenters for these batches even though im only doing a 23l mix? all the extra headroom. I remember asking this for a racking and i think you or bizier said just to add some dex to it, but seeing as this is for primary fermentation i assume it wouldnt matter cause all the gas should push the air out?

If your wondering why i want to use these 2, its because i only have 2 60s and 1 30 and i want everything to be as close to identical in method as possible for the comparison. And im about to put down another experimental kit/extract/steep in that one... if i cant use the 2 60s i will just go and buy another 30l fermenter and double up the recipes for the other experiment.

[Trough Lolly]

No probs - the 2 x 60L fermenters will be a bit of overkill, but you certainly can use them for the "experiment". Dextrose ferments more "cleanly" than table / cane sugar, so technically you should use slightly less dex than cane sugar, but to be honest it's not really much difference. Where you need to take the measurement into account is when you bulk prime. Anyway, use the dextrose as you would cane sugar and you'll be fine when bottling.

Cheers,
TL

[inark]

ok i'll go get another 30l then.

cheers,

TL

[inark]

ok well i put the steeped caramunich batch down last week... ran out of time on the day to put the other one down and because the next week was full of 40+ degree days i decided against puting the partial-mash down but now it looks like i will have to wait at least another week so i wont be able to test them side by side... still i always keep a lot of notes on each brew i make so shouldnt be too hard to tell the diff.