Two bags of grain

[Pom]

Guy, last time I was in Grain and Grape I bought, amoungts other things a 2kg bag of milled joe white Munich grain and a 2kg bag of milled joe white vienna grain.
The first question is although they have not been opened from their sealed bags, how quickly should I use them considering they have already been milled?
Secondly I have made a few partial extract recipes and im wondering how to incorperate these grains to make a nice beer.
Any recipe suggestions, I leave the field open to any styles of beer.
Thanks Rob

[Trough Lolly]

Guy, last time I was in Grain and Grape I bought, amoungts other things a 2kg bag of milled joe white Munich grain and a 2kg bag of milled joe white vienna grain.
The first question is although they have not been opened from their sealed bags, how quickly should I use them considering they have already been milled?
Secondly I have made a few partial extract recipes and im wondering how to incorperate these grains to make a nice beer.
Any recipe suggestions, I leave the field open to any styles of beer.
Thanks Rob

Off the top of my head, I'd be looking at an Altbier or Dunkel....or even an oktoberfest beer at a pinch. With 4kg of grain you could make a mid strength batch of all grain beer with no probs at all.

Cheers,
TL

[Pom]

TL I love to be up to the stade of all grain but im not quite there yet ive only been doing small mashes in a 10l esky. Ive used it mainly with Czech Pilns that Ive been making. Mashing 1 kg in a mini mash and adding it with the kit and some LDME and hops and maltodextrine.
Im looking for a recipe that I could incorperate some of each grain in the mini mash. Im also looking at using liquid yeast for the first time. So maybe adding that in to the mix as well.
Cheers for you help.
Rob

[Trough Lolly]

No sweat - if mash volume is a problem then why not get two Munich Lager kits, two kilo tubs of extract and split the bags and make two batches of Oktoberfest comprising a kit, kilo of extract and another kilo of mini mashed grains? Both batches will be full strength...

Cheers,
TL

[Pom]

That ske the way to go and ive been wanting to try and make an Oktoberfest. Could you give me a run down of any hops and their boil times and i will load it into beer smith and see what it gives me.
Also do you mean me to mash a kg of each the munich and the vienna giving me a kg of extract a can of munich lager and 1kg of munich and 1 kg of vienna in each batch?
Cheers rob

[Trough Lolly]

I've got a nice Oktoberfest recipe on Aussiehomebrewer - that said, you need to think German so Perle / Hallertauer for bittering up to around 30 IBU followed by lashings of Hallertauer or Tettnanger to flavour should do nicely. You want a sort of pale amber beer (copper is in the zone) for the grist and of course it goes without saying that a good quality, viable yeast is essential if you're seriously trying to make a good Oktoberfest beer.

You have 2 x 2kg bags so a kilo of each grain mashed for each of the two batches will do nicely. Yes, mix the grains and mash them to give you the benefits of the munich and vienna malts in the final product. Let us know how you go but please, make sure that you pick up some lager yeast to do the batches justice - if you want to stick to dry yeast, I can heartily recommend W34/70 or S-189 and try to keep the fermentation well under 16C...Do a batch, and then repitch the second batch onto the yeast cake and you'll do two brews with one purchase of yeast - and I'll bet good money that the second batch will taste better than the first, if you keep the ferment temps low.

Suggest you have a squizz at my partial mash method sticky if you haven't already done so...

Prost!
TL

[Pom]

Cheers TL
Im going to try Wyeast for the first time. Never had a crack with liquids before. Have order the Oktoberfest 2633. Also all my lagers I brew in a brew fridge I just dont have a tempmate on it yet so it is set to min. Keeps it down to about 12c give or take 1c.
I have alread read you post on Partials, it's what got me started down this path. Have used it with a Czech Pils which turned out great. I will go away and have a play with brewsmith and try and work out how much hops to use and will post back my final recipe for you to look over before I have a crack.
Cheers again Rob

[Pom]

Right TL
Ive had a play with beersmith.
1kg munich 1kg vienna, mashed in esky in 4l of water @66c for 60mins, stir every 15mins. sparge.
I cant work out how to put the mash into beersmith as i don't know which on to pick from the list. I have put another ttread up hopefully someone will tell me.
Then boil this for 60mins with 47g of 6% Alpha acid Hallertau giving me 30.2IBU.(23l batch)
when you say lashings of Tettnang 25g or 50g or more. I was going to put them in 10mins before flame out. Sound ok?
And as I cant work the mash on beer smith I can't work out the gravity yet. How much liquid malt should I be adding?
Make up to 23l with chilled water and pitch yeast around 12-14c
Rack after 1 week and leave till fermentation is finished.
cheers rob

[warra48]

When you go into BeerSmith, and open up your recipe page, click in the "type" box in the middle top, and select "partial mash".

Add your grains to the ingredients section, one at a time. You click on the right on "add grains/extract". In the box which comes up, select Munich, and 1 kg (or 1000 gr, depending on how you've set it up) and click "OK" on the bottom of the box.
Do the same with the Vienna.

Then click again on "add grains/extract", and select "light dry extract" to whatever weight you want. Click the box on the bottom " late extract boil", and change the time to say 5 or 10 minutes.

To add malto-dextrine, click on the "Add Misc" box and select it from there. If the weight comes up in ounces, select it anyway, and once it's in your recipe, click on it from there, and change the details to what you want in the box which pops up.

I'd be using more than 4 litres of water for 2 kg of grains, somewhere around 5 to 6 litres. You'll need to sparge the grains with a similar amount of water. Have a search for TL's post on Partial Mash techniques.

Have a play again with the recipe, and let us know if you have further questions.

[Pom]

Then click again on "add grains/extract", and select "light dry extract" to whatever weight you want. Click the box on the bottom " late extract boil", and change the time to say 5 or 10 minutes.

I had already added everything else, but I have done what you suggested and it has worked, I just don't get the late extract boil bit and why it workwed.

The OG is 1.057 and FG 1.017 with an estimated IBU of 28.6. But to get that I had to add 1.7kg liquid extract and 1 kg of LDME with the grain is that not a little excessive?

[warra48]

What is your Brewhouse Efficiency % set to? I'd suggest changing that to no more than 70%.
What volume have you set your Batch Size at? I suggest you set it as a standard batch at 23 litres.

2 kg of grain is only about 40% of what a full all grain brew uses, so you need to make up the rest with LDME, Malto-Dextrine, or Liquid Extract.

In my recipe calculation, for 23 litres set at 70% Brewhouse Efficiency, I added 2 kg of LDME for 5 minutes, and it gives me a predicted SG of 1.050, and FG 1.013. For a 23 litre batch, that gives you just over 5% ABV after priming.

Adding Malto-Dextrine doesn't seem to add anything to the OG.

[Pom]

The brewhouse efficiency was at 75% I have dropped it to 70% as you suggested.And the batch size I alread had set at 23l.
With the 2kg of grain 1.7kg liquid malt extract and 1kg of LDME it makes the OG 1056 and the FG 1016.
And 5.24%ABV That looks a bit better. What is the brew house efficiency, is it just the difference between the estimated OG and the atcual OG?

[warra48]

If you click on the Brewhouse Efficiency field, it opens up another window.
That's where you can input your various measurements during the brewing process.
It's aimed primarily at AG brews, but you can use it for partials.
It measures your efficiency at various stages of your brewing process.

BeerSmith has a built in Help function. Click on the Arrow/Question mark icon in the top task bar. Your cursor will change to " ? ". Then simply point it at any field and click, and the Help function will open up an explanation.

[Trough Lolly]

The brewhouse efficiency was at 75% I have dropped it to 70% as you suggested.And the batch size I alread had set at 23l.
With the 2kg of grain 1.7kg liquid malt extract and 1kg of LDME it makes the OG 1056 and the FG 1016.
And 5.24%ABV That looks a bit better. What is the brew house efficiency, is it just the difference between the estimated OG and the atcual OG?

Without getting too technical, nor wanting to sound like a knob, brewhouse efficiency isn't all that relevant when more than half of the recipe is derived from malt extract. You want to focus on process first and as you add more grain and substitute away from the malt extracts, the efficiency aspect will become more relevant. To assist you in your recipe formulation, set the efficiency to 70% to give you a reasonable chance of hitting the anticipated / expected in fermenter OG.

Oh, and if you aren't already a tad confused with all this stuff about efficiencies, it isn't the case that the best beers are made when you get 100% efficiency in the mash...!

Cheers,
TL

[Pom]

Thats very helpful guys.
I have set the efficiency at 70. Im more concerned with trying to formulate the recipe right. Ive worked out recipes before without graIns or just with smaller amounts of crystal. I just want to make sure after going to all the effort of mashing the grains I put the right amount of liquid or LDME in to balance the recipe and get the gravity up. And also put the right amount of hops in to get a good bitterness and flavour.
The final recipe will be -
1kg munich
1kg vienna
Mashed at 66c 1 hour.
Drained and sparged to a vol of 12l for boil.
42g Hallertauer add
1.7kg LME
1kg LDME
Boil for 1 hour
25g Tettnang add 10 mins Before flaqme out.
Topped up to 23l with chilled water.
Wyeast - Oktoberfest 2633
estimated OG -1.056
FG -1.016
IBU - 29.4

Hope this looks ok?
It whats going down on the weekend.
Cheers Rob

[Trough Lolly]

Looks like a nice big-assed Oktoberfest Rob! If it were me, I'd keep a close eye on the hydrometer and if you end up with a starting gravity as your recipe software suggests, I would actually add more top-up water or keep the volume up on the boil with hot water so you get the OG in the fermenter down to around 1.050. Why? Well, you have a nice amber lager there and you don't want to drown out all the nice complexity that you will certainly get with that combination of grist and hops, with the less subtle dry alcohol notes. I have made a few Oktoberfests in my time, and to be honest, the best ones were made with modest alcohol levels - let the flavours shine through and leave the high octane beers to those who think it's clever to toss in kilo upon kilo of dextrose!!

Have fun and with Wyeast 2633 keep a close eye on fermentation temps - the best lagers are made out of fresh ingredients, patience and temperature control. Keep the wort under 15C and you'll be doing very well...You should make at least 1L of fresh viable yeast starter for a big okkie like this.

Cheers and have fun!
TL

[Pom]

In that case TL would it be worth reducing the LDME slightly, im not a great fan of really over strong beer I prefer a nice flavour than strength.

[Trough Lolly]

Yep, that's what I'd do....it of course depends on how you go with your mash. If it turns out less than successful, you may need more LDME but as long as you make sure that you manage the mash temp and do a half decent sparge, you should be fine.

I'd cut the LDME back to 500g....If the bittering hops are 6% A/A, what's the rating of your Tettnanger hops?

Cheers,
TL

[Pom]

The Tettnang are 4.5%AA. I just had a blind stab at 25g.
With the sparging, last time I followed your instructions and it seemed to go ok. Is there any way to tell how successful the mash has been other than the gravity reading?
With the wyeast, Ive never used liquid yeast before but with instruction for Doc I recultured some CPA from a few stubbies and that seem ok. I was going to use the same process again, In which case I might not have the yeast ready in time.last time I did 60g of LDME in 600ml of water and then 200g in 2l but you recone a litre batch would be ok?
One answer seems to make for another question.
Cheers Rob

[Pom]

Just went to pick up my order from the HBS and the yeast isn't going to be in till monday so no Oktoberfest this weekend. It probably better it will give me a few day next week to grow the yeast.