toucan coopers IPA help

[Finnagann]

Hey everybody, I am new to the forum but I've been greatly enjoying reading through the recipes and advice.

I've been mostly following recipes (extracts) or doing kit and kilos so far and I'd like to take a bigger swing and I'd like some advice from the gurus. Has anyone done one of these?

Here's my toucan:

2x Coopers IPA (at flameout)
500g dark dry malt (60 min)
500g light dry hopped spray malt (?)
500g honey (60 min?)
500g medium crystal malt (steep before boil)
Hops??
1 pkg Danstar Nottingham yeast

Usually I ferment at 21 C but I was thinking of dropping it down to 17C for this one a leaving it a little longer in the primary. Maybe 10 days each for primary and secondary? I use a closed fermentor but I have heard that after a couple weeks the sediment will start to break down, hence racking after 10 days. Should it sit longer secondary? Am I in danger of loosing my hops if I ferment this long?

The coopers come in @ around 38 IBU per can in 23 lt so I'm not looking for any more bitter, but should I do some late hop additions for flavour/aroma? Will there be enough there already?

I want a big, bitter, strong and flavour filled beer at the same time I'm trying to keep it balanced.

How does this look?


Has anyone used spray malt? Should it go in @ flameout or does it need a boil? I'm assuming the honey should boil?

Casey

[Bum]

Your fermentables are all over the place. Dunno where this balance you're talking about comes into it.

Normal procedure with a toucan is to pitch both yeasts, isn't it? With your added fermentables (basically another beer on top of the toucan) I reckon the Notto might start to struggle.

I've used Fuggles with that kit and it was my best kit beer ever but I have been reconsidering re-doing it with EKG and Styrian Goldings.

[Finnagann]

Well, if I knew what I was talking about I wouldn't be asking for advice. As I stated at the beginning of my post I am new to this but am having fun playing around. I'm not going off any recipe here and would love some feedback.

My thoughts were:
2x coopers IPA, base malt and bitter
ldme and ddme for more body (I don't have a mid road dme avail atm hence some dark and some light)
honey to bring up the abv, and because its tasty
crystal to keep it from being to dry on account of the honey and high attenuation yeast.

I guess my theory crafting is a lil weak, Perhaps I should have simply asked what to do with two cans of IPA? Any thoughts?

[drsmurto]

If a can of IPA is 38 IBU in 23L then you are looking at bare minimum 76 IBU.

That's huge and unless you have had beers that bitter it will be very difficult to drink unless you balance it. Even so you'll still likely taste it the next day, like sucking on a used teabag. That was how i felt after my first taste of a beer this bitter, Mountain Goats limited release of a double IPA. Tasty but man it was bitter. Now, 70+ IBUs doesn't scare me as long as it balanced.

To balance that many IBUs out you would need to be in excess of 7% abv and probably with a decent whack of hops in a short boil - Fuggles/EKG and maybe some styrian goldings at 2-3g/L (total) in a short 5 min boil.

Nottingham is a workhorse and would have no problem getting through it. I'd probably throw in both packets of the yeast instead but only if you have good temperature control. The coopers yeast isn't too bad but any higher than 18C and your beer will reak of bananas.

For an example of the sort of territory you are heading in to have a goosy at this recipe which has been converted to kits and bits from an award winning AG recipe of mine. It will give you an idea of what is needed to be able to give a beer balance. It's big, hoppy and bitter but not overpowering and balanced. The AG version scored 42/50 at SABSOSA in 2008 in the strong ale section.

IIPA
2 x tins Coopers Lager
1.5kg LDME
Hops
20 min - 15g each of Fuggles, EKG and Styrian Goldings
10 min - 15g each of Fuggles, EKG and Styrian Goldings
0 min - 25g each of Fuggles, EKG and Styrian Goldings
Dry hop - 20g each of EKG and Styrian Goldings
Yeast - US05
Top up to 20L for OG 1.078, IBU ~ 70, ABV ~7.5% (these numbers i my best guess as its hard to work out utilisation with such a small boil volume and so many hops - the bigger the boil the more accurate the guesstimate you can make using beersmith).

The advantage of using the lager tins vs the IPA tins is that they have less IBU which allows you to put more hops in to balance the malt.

And keep asking questions, it's how i learnt when i first stumbled onto this forum a few years ago.

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Finnagann]

Thanks for the great response doc. I think I'll sit on this one for a bit and come back to it with a lil more experience (hopefully I can find something similar to try before brewing). Perhaps I'll try your kits and bits first if I can get my hands on the right hops. Do you have a guess at what hops the coopers IPA uses?

[Bum]

Supposedly Styrian Goldings. This info comes from Google rather than the brewery so it could easily be arse about. I might be worth asking them, they are often pretty forthcoming with info.

[Finnagann]

Thanks Bum, I'll send em a note. I assumed it was multiple varieties, there's what seem like a couple distinct hop notese. Must be from they're hops schedule?

[Bum]

Could be. I've never tried the a straight version of the kit so I couldn't be able to say one way or the other. I do have to say that I'm not entirely sure I could tell with any degree of certainty what variety of hops would be used in an isohop blend from tasting. The yeast in the tin is supposed to be somewhat estery so it is might be possible you're getting a fruitiness there which might come across as another hop variety?

Let us know what they say.

[Finnagann]

You had it right Bum, he said Styrian Golding for flavour and aroma.

Has anyone tried the yeast with anything else?

It has rather pleasant esters if thats the case. I'm tempted to culture some.