First AG recipe help

[Finnagann]

I think I've finally got a workable plan together for the big switch and I'd love a little help with my first recipe.

I'd like to start with something simple so I can get to know my malts, yeast and hops a little better as I go.

Selected Style and BJCP Guidelines
8B-English Pale Ale-Special/Best/Premium Bitter

Minimum OG: 1.040 SG Maximum OG: 1.048 SG
Minimum FG: 1.008 SG Maximum FG: 1.012 SG
Minimum IBU: 25 IBU Maximum IBU: 40 IBU
Minimum Color: 5.0 SRM Maximum Color: 16.0 SRM


Recipe Overview
Wort Volume Before Boil: 28.00 l Wort Volume After Boil: 23.00 l
Volume Transferred: 22.00 l Water Added To Fermenter: 1.00 l
Volume At Pitching: 23.00 l Volume Of Finished Beer: 22.00 l
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.039 SG Expected OG: 1.045 SG
Expected FG: 1.014 SG Apparent Attenuation: 68.9 %
Expected ABV: 4.2 % Expected ABW: 3.3 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 31.6 IBU Expected Color (using Morey): 3.2 SRM
BU:GU ratio: 0.70 Approx Color:
Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 18 degC


Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % MCU When
US 2-Row Malt 4000 g 84.2 % 2.5 In Mash/Steeped
US Carapils Malt 500 g 10.5 % 0.2 In Mash/Steeped
US Vienna Malt 250 g 5.3 % 0.3 In Mash/Steeped


Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
UK WGV 6.1 % 35 g 26.6 Loose Pellet Hops All Of Boil
UK WGV 6.1 % 14 g 4.9 Loose Pellet Hops 15 Min From End
UK WGV 6.5 % 7 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped


Edit: I don't have my volumes totally worked out yet

[drsmurto]

My 2 c.

Ditch the carapils, no place for that in an english bitter. Use an english crystal malt or something german if you cant get english.

Up the vienna to 10% or use munich at 10%.

Aim for a mash temp around 66-67C.

Now all you need is a good english yeast, preferably liquid.

[Finnagann]

Replaced carapils with 250g (enough?) medium uk crystal and upped the Toasted malt to 10.5% (500g) -The Vienna is actually toasted malt (beer alchemy doesn't have toasted).

I'm planning on using Wyeast 1968-London ESB Ale. Anyone used this one before?

Recipe Overview

Expected FG: 1.014 SG Apparent Attenuation: 68.9 %
Expected ABV: 4.2 % Expected ABW: 3.3 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 31.5 IBU Expected Color (using Morey): 6.4 SRM
BU:GU ratio: 0.69 Approx Color:
Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 18 degC


Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % MCU When
UK marris Otter 4000 g 84.2 % 2.5 In Mash/Steeped
US Vienna Malt 500 g 10.5 % 0.6 In Mash/Steeped
UK Medium Crystal 250 g 5.3 % 5.2 In Mash/Steeped


Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
UK WGV 6.1 % 35 g 26.6 Loose Pellet Hops All Of Boil
UK WGV 6.1 % 14 g 4.9 Loose Pellet Hops 15 Min From End
UK WGV 6.5 % 7 g 0.0 Loose Pellet Hops Dry-Hopped


Yeast
Wyeast 1275 - Thames Valley

Edit ended up using Marris Otter and Wyeast 1275 - Thames Valley

[warra48]

I love WY1968, it's one of my favourite yeast for English style ales. I use it frequently.
It gives you a malt oriented brew, perfect for Milds and Bitters.

I normally build up a good sized starter, and save several tubes, and pitch the rest of the starter.
Be aware it tends to drop out early during fermentation, so after 2 or 3 days, sanitise a long spoon, and gently stir your brew to resuspend the yeast. Do it again another 2 or 3 days later. You need to do this to ensure your brew ferments right out.
I'd leave it in the fermenter for about 2 weeks.

Your recipe looks good to me now you've replaced the Carapils with Medium Crystal.

[Finnagann]

Warra, have you ever tried bringing up the temp at all ? Wyeast says it will produce more of its fuity esters from 21-23, I'm curious how much. They also say that it prduces a lot of diacetyl and that a throrough rest is necessary, have you rested it? What temperature would one rest an ale at... 25c?

Only two weeks? Do you usually leave that short? I was thinking 3-4 weeks in primary with a dry hop and no secondary.

[Finnagann]

Here's what I'm looking at for numbers, am I on the right track?

Mashing 4.75 kg @ 2.3 L/kg (does that sound right?) = ~11L of strike water @75C to hit 66C.

-I'm using a 47.3 L cooler with a steel braid to mash/lauter, should I pre-heat the cooler? If so, how much water and how hot do folks use? I'll slowly add some water and some grains and stir till all is mixed well and leave for an hour.

-I have 2 x 15.1 L pots to do a split boil. I'm thinking 12L each so as not to boil over, is this enough head room?

-How much water will the grain absorb? I'd like to have a rough guess at how much sparge water to have ready. Sparge water @ 75C?

-Is loosing 2 litres from each pot over an hour boil a reasonable guess? Do I want a super vigerous boil or just boiling? Sadly I will have to add some top up still , but hopefully it won't be enough to affect things too much.

Yikes.... details details I think that's got it all covered.

[warra48]

I've used WY1968 about 5 or 6 times so far.
Usually I leave it in the fermenter for not less than 2 weeks, and normally do the first week at 18ºC, and allow it to come up to about 20ºC from then on.
Can't say I've noticed diacetyl at all in my beers.
I would think that just leaving the beer on the yeast will act as a diacetyl rest. Time should help clear it up, although I can't see a downside in raising the temperature after the first 2 weeks or so in primary.

As an aside, my last APA with US05 was in primary at 18ºC for 9 days, and then dropped to 3ºC for another 19 days before bottling straight from primary. It's the cleanest and clearest APA I've ever made.

I tend to pitch my starters with a good volume of yeast, and I have the starter and batch at the same temperature. I think not stressing the yeast probably helps to prevent or minimise diacetyl but, on the other hand, my sense of smell is not as great as some (my wife's is much better).

[warra48]

If you are using only just under 5 kg of grains in a 47 litre cooler, I would definitely pre-heat it. A couple of kitchen type kettles of boiling water should do the trick.

It's difficult to advise anyone on exact temperatures and volumes for mashing, as you need to dial in your own system. Your really need to keep careful notes, and modify what you do as you bed down your experience with your system.

I no longer bother with calculating or measuring grain/water ratios. I heat my HLT to about 8 to 9ºC above my desired mash temperature, underlet 5 or 6 litres of water, dump in the grains, stir like mad, and slowly allow more water to trickle in from my HLT as I continue to stir and monitor the temperature. Once I get to my target mash temperature, I stop adding water. I have no idea exactly what volume I use to mash in, and I don't think it matters greatly if you use a few litres more or less than some theoretical ratio. I don't use that function of BeerSmith. With a mashtun as large as yours, you'll want to cover the mash with something such as a fitted piece of camping mat, foam, or at least foil, to isolate the headspace. If you don't, you'll have a big temperature drop over an hour.

I'd think 12 litres in a 15 litres pot will be OK if you watch it and are careful to prevent boilovers. They happen very quickly. You'll need to drop the heat quickly and stir the pot to reduce the potential for a boilover. Using a spray bottle with water to spray the froth on top is also helpful.

You need a boil where you get the bubbles breaking the surface, but you don't need to boil too vigorously. Something more than a simmer, but you don't want a volcano.

Boil off rates are dependent on the surface area of your pot. Again, measure what you start with, and what you have at the end of the boil to get an idea of your system. I have no idea what you'd lose in two 15 litre pots over an hour, but 2 litres each doesn't sound unreasonable. I lose about 4 to 5 litres in a 40 litres pot, and another litre to cooling contraction.

I have my sparge water at about 90ºC. It cools down as it hits the mash, and won't give you any undesirable extraction at that temperature.

Good luck, and remember, it's a hobby, and have fun!

[Finnagann]

That is all very helpful Warra, thank you for taking the time

Sadly they ran out of the 1968 But I did grab some 1275, Thames Valley Ale, which sounds like it has a nice flavour profile. Would you still do 2 weeks primary and then bottle? This one doesn't floc as well, they say medium to low. Maybe 3-4 weeks?

I've made marks on all my pots/buckets/carboys to try to keep track of all my volumes as I go and I'll try to keep the best notes I can. Man I am excited

[Finnagann]

Ya'r, its in the tun. Mashing away happily at 66C. No major snags yet Murphy.

[Finnagann]

about half way through temp dropped to 65, added some boiling water to bring it back up... now holding steady.

[warra48]

If you are sure primary fermentation is over, you should be OK to bottle after two weeks.
Leave it longer if you wish, it won't do any harm.

Floculation is a different thing to fermentation. Floculation is where the yeast drops out of suspension and settles into the bottom of the fermenter. Of course, the same thing will happen in the bottle during storage.

Good to hear all is going well. Good luck, bet it'll turn out a great beer.

[Finnagann]

Floculation is a different thing to fermentation. Floculation is where the yeast drops out of suspension and settles into the bottom of the fermenter. Of course, the same thing will happen in the bottle during storage.

Ya roger, just thinking that it might like more time to clear.


INto the boil now, my pre-boil grav was down about 5-6 points. Don't think I got everything with my sparge.

[warra48]

Into the boil now, my pre-boil grav was down about 5-6 points. Don't think I got everything with my sparge.

Did you temperature correct your reading? Your wort will be hot when you drain it into the kettle. It could be the difference in your readings?

For example, I brewed a Mild recently. Measured 1.020 at 58ºC into the kettle when I finished sparging. After temperature correction, corrected SG was 1.034 at 20ºC.

Another issue is that you have a fairly large mashtun, and so could have quite a bit of dead space. If you can somehow drain more of this to the kettle, you should up your SG points somewhat, as you will need to use less sparge water (hope this makes sense).

[Finnagann]

Did you temperature correct your reading? Your wort will be hot when you drain it into the kettle. It could be the difference in your readings?

Ya I cooled it to 20C, helped some but was still low.

Another issue is that you have a fairly large mashtun, and so could have quite a bit of dead space. If you can somehow drain more of this to the kettle, you should up your SG points somewhat, as you will need to use less sparge water (hope this makes sense).

Not totally following you, can you elaborate?

I have a theory, but I don't have much experience to go from. My pitching grav was down, 7 points. My mash tun has a large surface area (its a large rectangular cooler) and the stainless braid I use to filter the swwet liquor snakes the whole length (does a loop). Unlike the stand up coolers that have a small surface area. I'm thinking that the sparge water doesn't get a chance to filter through a large quantity of the grain before leaving the tun.

So I could try to shorten the snake a bit and tilt the tun, maybe 30-45 degrees, so that the sparge water has to pass through more grain before leaving (simulating what happens in a stand up cooler). What do you think?


All in all that was a lot of fun! And totally exausting... I'm played right out Everything went pretty well I think except for the low efficiency. I also had a rough time filtering after the boil. Any slick ideas out there? I'm tempted to try cheese cloth over a 5 gal bucket next time... though I'm not sure it'll hold the weight.

[warra48]

If you batch sparge it doesn't matter how your tun is set up, as you simply totally drain your first runnings until it stops.
It is only then you add the sparge water, and drain that again until it stops.

What I don't know is, how much is left behind in dead space in your mashtun once you complete draining your mash. In my case, it is only about .2 litre if I tip mine up to drain it as much as possible. I don't know how yours is set up, but I'd be surprised if you didn't leave at least a litre behind from your first runnings and sparge. Leaving this behind reduces your efficiency, thus losing you some points.

Now, at the end of the day, once you dial in your system, you can make allowances for this in your recipes by adding a bit more grain to your malt bill. It's not a big issue.

Almost every doing their first AG brew will either end up short of volume, short on SG points, or both I did with mine!). It will improve once you get to know your system.
If you've collected your planned volume, and have only dropped 7 points, you've done pretty well!

[Trough Lolly]

If you are using only just under 5 kg of grains in a 47 litre cooler, I would definitely pre-heat it. A couple of kitchen type kettles of boiling water should do the trick.

I use a 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler for my mashes and regularly mash around 4kg of grain for my standard house ales etc. I don't pre-heat but I do know my system well enough to make sure that the strike water must be 10C more than the mash temp if I'm to get the right temperature rest each and every time. I don't ruin the mash because by the time the full volume of strike water is in place, it's well under 75C and I get 80% extraction efficiency without any problems.

My 2c...

Cheers,
TL

[Finnagann]

If you are using only just under 5 kg of grains in a 47 litre cooler, I would definitely pre-heat it. A couple of kitchen type kettles of boiling water should do the trick.

I use a 10 gallon Rubbermaid cooler for my mashes and regularly mash around 4kg of grain for my standard house ales etc. I don't pre-heat but I do know my system well enough to make sure that the strike water must be 10C more than the mash temp if I'm to get the right temperature rest each and every time. I don't ruin the mash because by the time the full volume of strike water is in place, it's well under 75C and I get 80% extraction efficiency without any problems.

My 2c...

Cheers,
TL

I did pre-heat with 4.5 l and it almost seemed too warm, I didn't add as much strike water as I thought I would before I was over my temp. I had to cool and then heat. It stayed within 2 deg of my strike temp for most of it though. WIll the temp moving for a few min affect my efficiency?

Warra, do you really think dead space would account for that much loss? I definatly have some but havn't measured it.

[warra48]

I'm just second guessing where you might have lost some efficiency. Can't say it is definite.
The usual experience of new AG brewers is that their efficiency improves once their systems are dialled in, and your relax with your procedures.
It took me about 8 or so batches before I started to hit my regular 90+% on mash efficiency.

The temperature variation of a couple of degrees either way will not affect your efficiency.

I'd relax. Next recipe, just add a bit more grain, and the problem is solved!

[Finnagann]

I'm just second guessing where you might have lost some efficiency. Can't say it is definite.
The usual experience of new AG brewers is that their efficiency improves once their systems are dialled in, and your relax with your procedures.
It took me about 8 or so batches before I started to hit my regular 90+% on mash efficiency.

The temperature variation of a couple of degrees either way will not affect your efficiency.

I'd relax. Next recipe, just add a bit more grain, and the problem is solved!

I appreciate you holding my hand through that warra, there's lots of balls to get in the air. I'll just carry on with my sparging... and everything else

I must say thinking of my brew bubbling away puts a rather silly grin on my face. I'll be havin another go as soon as time allows.

How'd your bopils go over at the inlaws?