Russian Imperial Stout

[drsmurto]

Had a group brewday yesterday, 4 brewers took their rigs around to another brewers house and brewed beer.

It was a Russian imperial stout (well, for 4 of us, the other one did a double decocted bo pils).

The smell of the mash and then 4 RIS' boiling was amazing. They looked like giant espressos, black as the ace of spades with a dark brown foam (crema). 4 different yeasts being used - a belgian, a german and 2 yanks (wy1056 and dennys fave)

Missed OG due to lower boil off, we all did. First time brewing outside so the wind played havoc with the burner, could only get a simmer going. Will bring it up to gravity with some sugar.

Recipe was
8.80 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (5.9 EBC) Grain 74.58 %
1.20 kg Roasted Barley (Bairds) (1350.0 EBC) Grain 10.17 %
0.95 kg Brown Malt (Bairds) (120.0 EBC) Grain 8.05 %
0.60 kg Chocolate Malt (Bairds) (1200.0 EBC) Grain 5.08 %
0.25 kg Amber Malt (Bairds) (100.0 EBC) Grain 2.12 %
125.00 gm Target [9.50 %] (60 min) Hops 98.0 IBU
1 Pkgs German Ale (Wyeast Labs #1007) Yeast-Ale

25L
OG 1.080
IBU 98
EBC 188

The OG will increase to 1.095(ish) with the addition of 1kg of sugar. The plan is to age this for ~6-12 months in a keg with an oak stave and possibly a vanilla bean in secondary.

Am using the german ale yeast as i have a yeastcake available plus its high attenuating so i hope to get the FG down below 1.020. The yeast plays a background role in a beer like this.

[Chris]

In the theme of rehashing the past...

I don't believe you made a RIS

Out of curiosity,

1) Are you aiming for a particular SG, or are you just going to let the yeast self-limit?
2) do you expect the yeast to get it down to 1020?
3) if it doesn't were you going to pitch something else to finish the job?

[Tipsy]

I don't believe you made a RIS

Don't start that again

I'll be interested in the tasting notes on these Doc, the one with the belgian yeast in particular.
I guess I might have to wait a while though.

[drsmurto]

In the theme of rehashing the past...

I don't believe you made a RIS

Out of curiosity,

1) Are you aiming for a particular SG, or are you just going to let the yeast self-limit?
2) do you expect the yeast to get it down to 1020?
3) if it doesn't were you going to pitch something else to finish the job?

WY1007 has a reported attenuation of 74-77%. 1.095 to 1.020 is 77% and since i will be pitching it onto an entire yeastcake i expect it to hit the upper end. I mashed long and low (64-65C for 90 mins) and with the sugar added to hit OG 1.095 i am assuming it will get down to at least 1.020 but its up to the yeast to do the job.

I've never had this yeast fall short. I don't have a back up plan as such although champagne yeast is generally used for stuck ferments on big beers.

I don't believe you made a RIS

Don't start that again

I'll be interested in the tasting notes on these Doc, the one with the belgian yeast in particular.
I guess I might have to wait a while though.

I was a tad surprised at the choice of a belgian yeast but then again i am using a german ale yeast so there will be 4 different beers to try. I intend to keg mine and let it sit for as long as possible before bottling.

[speedie]

DR
Just reading your stout formula and was wondering if these are actual figures or projected
Based on system extract efficiency being say 72% from grain and not confused with brew house efficiency not forgetting that this a hypothetical assumption.

Try this formula and see if it equates


%extract = (Plato x wort knocked out)/ kgs of grain

Extract efficiency = 72%

Desired Plato = 20 degrees (1080)

Kgs required = (desired Plato x knocked wort) / %

= (20 x 25) / 72 = 6.9 kgs of grain


Using your numbers RIS

(20 Plato x 25 litres) / 10 kgs of grain = 50% extraction rate

Now to get the desired Plato of a planed RIS of say 1095 OG or 23.75 Plato


Grain bill is kgs = (23.75 x 25) / 50% extraction rate 11.87 kgs

Please don’t go into what recovery we get from the roasted grains as it is minimal in the overall make up

I have used this math for some time now and it is a good reference to what is going on with the system and for formulation in general


These formulas I have on my cool room door and refer to often


% extract = (Plato x wort knocked out)/ kgs of grain

Kgs required = (desired Plato x litres ) / extract efficiency


Plato = (kgs x actual extract % ) / litres
Regards speedie

[Bum]

Your obsession is almost Freudian, speedie. He's made the same beer either way. Let it go.

[speedie]

bum the good DR wanted me to post with it is ok with you?

[Bum]

Not in the slightest.

[speedie]

Doctor
I like your suggestion for oak in the conditioning stage it is an area that most stay away from
I have been thinking along the lines but with an old English strong ale say 7.5% use good estery yeast do the same thing that is in your head but not put the whole stave in the keg
Get an old jack plane then set it to a reasonable depth on the cut and shave of the swirly bits and use them
I think that there would be more oak exposed to the batch due to surface area available and it is a proven flock principle
Condition for some time and co2 at say 1.75 volumes and hand pump the stuff!
You know that we are screwed by the government with regards to excise it has forced most brewers to hold down alcohol content
There are a few adventurous micros pushing the envelope but it costs the end user sooo! Much more in the glass
That is one of the reasons I prefer to brew my own
See you speedie
Ps we did some shiraz some time back and still have the wine soaked oak staves
Could go towards red colored ale?

[rotten]

Gday Speedie.
You sound like you understand your method of brewing calculations very, very well. I must say if they are correct I'm very impressed. Please don't prove them again, I beleive you. These calcs however are one very good reason that I never attempted HB for so long. It always sounded so complicated and people made it seem like it was the end of the world of you slightly misjudged something.
I have recently realised through this forum and it's advice, incorporating john palmer to an extent, that there is nothing, nothing to be intimidated about.
This may or may not be correct, but I feel you make home brew intimidating and complicate it more than it needs to be.
If brewewrs are getting consistent results with their grain bills, and enjoying their brews, what else matters. There is a lot more to home brew than just efficiency. You may gave great efficiency, but if it tastes like shit, who will drink it?
There is no such thing as a bad brew, as long as you enjoy it, and enjoyed brewing it.
That is what I have gained most out of this forum and hope never to lose. This is afterall a hobby, a very tasty hobby, for most of us.
Cheers.

[speedie]

Rotten
I started brewing just like you did blind to most knowledge and only passionate to beer itself

I see it this way every one tries to brew to a strict formula or style guide line to replicate some thing that they liked the taste of, which is commendable but not practical

I have submitted many beers for judging which have passed for the style category
Most of the good evaluators are BJCP certified
you would be surprised at the judges comments they are so conflicting some say more hop others not enough, under carbonated but great head retention etc
What I am saying is I agree with you beer should be fun, it is only mystified by ourselves

If the cake tastes good who cares how it was cooked same with beer
Most of the famous styles were more by accident that design
look at some of the newer brews coming out now what with herbs, spices and different adjuncts, a computer program cant design these things they have too evolve from constant changing to suit not the brewers choice but mainly the greater public

Now when I brew I keep a handle on what is going on i.e. keep records of everything and generally run with what feels good on the day, I don’t use software programs for design, its sort of like (feel the power Luke stuff)
If it feels good do it
Cheers speedie

[Bum]

Speedie, do you think the way these programs work is you just select a style and it tells you what to brew? These programs are the same as your handwritten method only they do the maths for what you decide to brew automatically. Nothing apart from the maths is automated. You design every aspect of your beer.

Am I the only one who feels that speedie puts as much care into reading the posts of others as he puts into the composition of his own? No reply ever has anything much to do which whatever may have originally provoked it.

[hirns]

You're right and you're wrong Bum. I could actually understand that last post .

Speedie, Bum alludes to an an important point and it has been made before about remembering the purpose of the post and the background of others on the forum. The purpose is to assist others without making it appear as we are experts or can't learn anything from the forum, regardless of our level of expertise (Dr S is humble in his advice, Bum always ). Before I made my first post I spent eight days solid reading through nearly every post on the forum just to understand where I sat with others. I also learn't a hell of a lot and gained many a laugh. Whilst, not all have the time to do this it allows us to understand the audience that we are pitching to. Aim to provide at least one piece of constructive advice towards solving the topic of the thread. That's not to say that I don't get it wrong: with the lack of facial expressions it is sometimes difficult to read if I've sounded condesending or if someone is taking the piss out of me. Regardless of your wealth of experience, like anything you need to prove yourself first by giving meaningful advice rather than discussing one's acheivements. I know many a carpenter with 30 plus years of experience who still can't hang a door! I know many a teacher with 30 plus years of teaching who can't teach! I will finish with the adage that you learn twice as much from listening than you do speaking, AND nice brew-rig!

Cheers

Hirns.

[drsmurto]

Beersmith tell me i achieved 55% efficiency so your calcs are pretty close. I will sit down and have a look at the numbers and work them out but since beersmith does the calculation for me and i hit the predictions every time regardless of whether i have roasted barley or crystal malts i am happy that beersmith does actually take this into account in the calculation.

For what its worth - i achieve 70% efficiency on beers up to OG 1.050. It goes up if i make low OG beers and down if i make higher OG beers. I batch sparge rather than the more traditional fly sparging so the rinsing step is not that important - you dump in all the sparge water, stir and then let it settle for 5-10 mins. Vorlauf/recirculate and then drain. Not as efficient as fly sparging but simpler.

The RIS is now sitting in a keg with a new American oak stave in it. I put it in before it hit FG so it should (hopefully) carb up by itself. I will check in a few months and plan on bottling it in stubbies aiming for no more than 1.8 volumes of CO2.

I also have ~800L of wine in the shed in 4 x 200L fermenters and they each have 2 or 3 french oak staves in them......

[speedie]

To the DOCTOR
We are not that far apart in thought on putting things together are we!

If my comments seemed abrupt apologies
I am one that speaks my piece!
Getting back to your stout if you obtained those numbers after the event I would take a look at your milling sparging and temperatures

It is in our best interest to obtain the maximum yield DR!
My approach to brewing is from a lot of hard earned knocks
As I indicated in previous posts the only reason that I posted is that this is an Aussie site and I like Aussies!

What I was trying to present to all is that the grain has the potential to yield a maximum of at best 78% return and this is generous
What is left is cellulose fibre and stuff?
In the stuff that is left will be the unspareged sugars which is a waste

Once you have obtained these sugars then your assumption on 85+90% figures come into play as this is now brew house efficiency i.e. what is left in your fermenter

Look at it this way if you continue to brew the same way you need to mash more for given volume, now we both have other things to do so it makes sense to get it right

I to did Shiraz hand picked from organically grown grapes it was a good days work picked about one and a half tons, and the wine is really good we used a lallamand yeast which was D80 really good fermenter

Should I be posting under general discussion?
Regards speedie
Ps hope that the others follow my thoughts

[speedie]

Hirns your felosify is sound in approach but flawed in reality (now dont get offended)

If the chippy can’t hang a door after 30 plus years he won’t be self employed and living on his reputation the same can be said for the teacher he will never get up the train of command as he can’t portray his thoughts adequately

Brewing is fun and rewarding both to you and others so don’t try to make it harder than it is
Mate if the Cimmerians could do it 5000 years back we must be able to get it right!

Off topic we (I) kegged 150 litres of wheat beer (tried some dehydrated yeast from a pro brewer mate it is really surprising stuff PK bubble gum clove just yummy stuff) this weekend and transferred 400 liters of the latest lager brew as I have posted someway else on this forum
Keep at it speedie

[hirns]

"serenity now"

[speedie]

bum
hope that these posts arnt offending you
prost speedie
must bed now good night all!

[hirns]

"serenity now"

Hirns

[Bum]

bum
hope that these posts arnt offending you

I assure you that they are but after (rightfully) being moderated when I replied to you last I've decided not to do so unless I feel it essential in future.

Or if I get really, really pissed.

(Before anyone wants to get all up in my "bidness" - he addressed a post to me so I feel I should respond.)