My first stout

[Bum]

For what it is worth, efficiencies over 90% are certainly not unheard of on a HB scale.

Not that it matters, of course, I'm sure Warra would be the first to admit that it isn't your efficiency but what you do with it that counts.

[speedie]

like drinkin or some thing like that

[warra48]

You do the math.
You've seen my grain bill.
32.25 litres at 1.042 pre-boil from 5.1 kg of grains.

Beyond that, I don't care what my efficiency is. All I know is my usual range in BeerSmith is between 90 and 95% mash efficiency.
It's all I need to work out my recipes and achieve consistent outcomes.

[Bum]

I dunno how much you've been reading around the place but speedie is here to save homebrew. He knows the lot and his stories are the BEST.

But while we're on the subject of efficiencies - as you've read elsewhere, I just got myself a mill and have been worrying about my mill gap. Since your crush is one of the many things you're obviously doing right could you please give me a couple of pointers (if you don't mind me hijacking your thread a smidge, that is)?

[warra48]

I use a MillMaster.
My gap is set at between 1.0 and 1.1 mm. I never change the gap, and just leave it set as is. I check it with a feeler gauge about once or twice a year, but it hasn't moved since I got the mill 2½ years ago.
I do hand mill, so the grain probably goes through much slower than if it was milled with a drill or a motor. It takes me about 5 to 6 minutes to mill 5 kg. Easy enough to do when the HLT is heating up.
I batch sparge and use a manifold in my mashtun.

[Bum]

Thanks, Warra. If (my use of) my feeler gauge is to be believed I've set my JSP MillMaster at 1.17mm so I'll think about winding it back ever so slightly for the next one. I do understand there is more involved here than mill gap, of course. I worked through my grain at a little more than 1kg per minute including loading the tiny hopper so I'll look at going a little slower on the next run too. Didn't work out my efficiency on today's brew as SWMBO has lost the thermometer I use to check sample temps. Did I say that? I meant I must have lost it. I also batch sparge but with a BeerBelly Falsie.

[speedie]

Bum and warra
Both of you are probably really nice Aussie guys doing the thing that we do best
My comments on extraction efficiency are based on information that I have researched it is a formula that I have (and when I say we it is because there are 10 regular brewers with me and no reference to royalty) used to calculate grain amounts for any given brew length that may be required
My intension is to assist not offend anyone so when I get snide remarks it is a little off putting
If you would like to present your side of 90% extraction rates for debate please do so
I don’t tout my self as the oracle of brewing but after 30 odd years I should have stumbled across so worthwhile information
Regards speedie

[warra48]

I don't recall making snide remarks?
I've posted my recipe, and the relevant details of my extraction.
The efficiency figures I posted are given to me by BeerSmith.

Now, I'm not enough of a scientist to prove or disprove the logic of BeerSmith programming or formulae.
I will say that for my first 5 or 6 AG brews I kept detailed notes, and calculated my efficiency manually, based on formulae in John Palmer's How to Brew 3rd edition. When I susbsequently input those recipes into BeerSmith, the calculations matched.

Are you suggesting their methodology is incorrect? If so, in what respect?
What is your formula, how does it work, and what improvements does it provide as against the standard prevailing wisdom?

By the way, I'm only a certificated Aussie. I'm really a clogwog, born in a village about 20 km from the centre of Amsterdam.

[speedie]

Warra
Please try this formula and check the figures
Pre boil og 1042 now with 10% evaporation you would expect that your reading would increase so lets say 1045 now divide this by 4 to convert it to Plato which is 11.25 multiply this by your final volume at say 32.25 X .9 for boil off 29litres
So now we multiply these 11.25 x 29 you get 36.25 divide by the grain bill that you used which was 5.1 we now get 71 % extraction efficiency
Some ways of approach are different but what I was saying is get to know your brew rig use the efficiency formula that works for you
Some of the most up to date breweries would kill for your figures can you imagine what sort of dollar value per ton of grain that would pay back
All the best speedie
ps dont include non converting grain black dark choch etc
pps just read your reply the netherlands make great beer kroon grolsh prost!

[Ed]

I use Palmers formula. When working out mash efficiency, you will need to include the dark malts. They most certainly do contribute to the wort gravity. Forget about any evaporative losses when working out mash efficiency. All you need is gravity, total grain, theoretical possible total points, and volume collected.

We have 1.042, 5kg's of point producing material, combined possible points of 35.10, and a total collected volume of 32.50 litres. There were 32.46 points per lb collected. 32.46 (points collected) divided by 35.10 (theoretical maximum potential) gives you about 0.925, multiply by 100 to convert to a percentage give you 92.5%. I used a possible yield of 37 for the base malt, 32 for the flaked barley, and 28 for the roast.

The supplied efficiency formula from speedie doesn't seem to include possible collectible points???

Cheers, Ed

[speedie]

I will attempt to present my concept.
Picture this and it may seem hard to you 10kgs of pale grain in the mash. If we apply enough heat to convert all fermentable starches too sugar we may end up with about 76% fermentable sugars
Now you space cowboys seem to have approached this concept the wrong way
If 10 kegs grain will yield 91% why don’t you go to any main stream brewery and present symposium?
Come on give me a break here are we talking about the same thing?
Maybe be your concept is brew house efficiency and not what the whole debate is about extract efficiency
I can’t put my calcs any simpler for you
1 kg of grain equals 76% of fermentable sugar please try to grasp it as I know it seems difficult
Speedie

[Bum]

I will attempt to present my concept .
Picture this and it may seem hard to you ...
Now you space cowboys seem to have approached this concept the wrong way
...why don’t you go to any main stream brewery and present symposium?
Come on give me a break here ...
I can’t put my calcs any simpler for you
...try to grasp it as I know it seems difficult

Just wanting to point out why everyone thinks you do seem a little bit confused on the matter.

Regardless of the above, my understanding is that most people, globally, refer to brewhouse efficiency rather than what is extracted from one particular type of grain exclusively when they talk about efficiency. And before you go me for having the nerve to say anything at all - I've never even bothered working out what my efficiency is so your lofty standards don't effect me in the slightest.

Here's an idea, if you don't mind me putting one forward - save your lectures and bullying for your IRL brew-"mates" and enter into discussions instead in this unfamiliar environment.

[speedie]

Bum here we go again my input is not to bully any body but merely to project the possible out come from conversion of fermentable grain in any given batch
Wot could be more comprehehbile that stating this 10kg of grain given the best possible conversion techniques will only ever give and at the best of freaking times 76% extract efficiency
Come on what the have you been learning

Speedie

[Bum]

comprehehbile

Just saying, yo.

[warra48]

We're not comparing the same thing?

What BeerSmith measures as "Efficiency into Boiler" is the percent extracted of the theoretical maximum sugar to be extracted from the various grains. I call that mash efficiency or extract efficiency.

So, let's assume you are correct in saying all fermentable starches will convert to 76% fermentable sugars. That point is arguable, as different malts, malting methods, kilning methods etc will lead to variable potential extracts, but we'll assume you are correct.

What I'm saying is my mash normally extracts around 90 to 95% of all available sugars.
In your terminology that's between 68 to 72%.
Not a bad result for a strung together small 3 vessel home brew set-up, surely?

We're talking about the efficiency in extracting all the potential sugars available from the mash, whether fermentable or not. That's the whole purpose of the mash. We know not all sugars are fermentable, that's why we use specialty malts to add sweetness, body, mouthfeel, etc etc.
You're talking about the potential extract available as fermentable sugars only, as far as I can tell.

I'm tired, I'm going to bed, and I will not argue this further. I'm comfortable with my figures, they tell me what I want to know. I'm a small scale home brewer, and I have no desire to compare myself with commercial brewers. End of argument for me. Case closed.

[speedie]

warra!
You are the only dude (clog wearing or not) that has really grasped what the I (WE) have been trying for the last I don’t know how many days to project what is really important in any brewing process
We need to get the maximum extraction from base malt due to good practice and equipment design!
I don’t give a flying phuck how you quote your figures (that’s not me talking) at the end of the day how many dogs can wear the same collar
Ps I stayed in single channel on my friends houseboat and loved it
Speedier
s of your piers reading what you post!

[Bum]

What is this I don't even

[speedie]

beersmith is a program for the interseted to buy at a profit to who?
and as you stated it is only concered with brew into the boiler and not how you me or bum converted it!

[Bum]

Can I ask you a question, speedie?

I'll go ahead and presume this is okay.

Are you suggesting that the only thing worth considering in the designing of a beer is the potential alcohol? Because that is the ultimate inference of your point. The issue isn't that people don't understand your point - it is that people think your point is stupid.

[speedie]

Bum me old mate this may be of little concern to you because you and the rest of the cyber crew are home brewers but when it comes to commercial brewing you would get reamed with your attitude
I give this simple analogue to all of the crew listing
10kgs of grain cost $20 wouldn’t you do your best to recuperate 75% of your investment
Think of it this way 91% minus 76% must be 15% loss in someone’s investment eyes
What the!