yeast culture

[drsmurto]

yeast is up and running hard now it has been grown up in daily increments and is up to 22 litre demijohn size now
may do that russian stout on sunday
if wife agrees
good value for a bottle of imported beer @ $15 plus the yeast
smack pack $18

Smack pack $18?

You are being ripped off Speedie, the last smack pack i bought was $11.50

[Bum]

Most I've paid is $13.50 but either way we're talking $3 to $6.50 difference over 400L of beer.

As a fish's.

[speedie]

hay i got to drink the beer and use the yeast for $15
there is the value as opposed to smack pack

[Bum]

Well, I'd wait until the beer was finished before I said smackpacks were a complete waste of time.

But that might just be me.

[bullfrog]

Even if a smack pack costs $18, how difficult is it to split a smack pack and get 5 or 6 brews out of the one pack? That being said, you surely could have also done that with your commercial yeast culture as well, but I think that calling something dear when it can work out to $3 a batch is being just a little too frugal.

[bullfrog]

Disregarding the fact that I never specified American yeast, for a minute-

All methods of yeast reculturing that are practised by home brewers are bound to end in mutation, simply because any time yeast does anything it mutates. This falls down to bottle reculturing, top-cropping, re-pitching yeast cake, the sterile water method and slants (probably the least so.)

I'll also have it known that not all mutations are bad mutations. I read, in that past few days, that the doc prefers 1469 when it's a few generations in (can't comment personally, never used this yeast.)

People shouldn't be drawn away from smack-packs because of the price, as they can easily be split. I also, if you want to re-read, mentioned that your bottle reculturing could be treated the same way.

[EDIT: Following in Bum's footsteps, I have to make note here that a number of Speedie's posts have been removed so a lot will seem out of context]

[speedie]

on saturday "we" produced an ale of 1075 og and pitched with that rouges culture which was probably a mutant anyway
it is a very aggresive fermenter with a large thick pillow of yeast bubble on top of the wort
was pitched on saturday arvo and today has settled to a slow finish
i didnt take any gravity readings but am sure that it is chommping away
as stated bottle of ale with yeast $15 good value!

[Bum]

What are you talking about? I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one who suggested that reculturing from a grey import bottle would be less than ideal so I dunno where this idea you have that everyone is against the idea came from. On top of that I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that your beer is going to be better than one that was fermented with a commercial smackpack. Dunno what you're banging on about, really.

[EDIT: If anyone is wonder what I'm banging on about, some of speedie's post has been removed.]

[speedie]

Could you please comment on the production of beer via bottle cultured as opposed to smackpack yeast?
given that it is the same strain
They both have risks involved with the process
I was wondering how you could differentiate from the two
What method would you use?
bum what was removed?

[Bum]

The part that was removed was the part were you flat out accused everyone of not only being wrong about everything but also of picking on you for no reason (last part was inferred).

If you seriously cannot see any potential differences between Activator smackpacks with over one billion active cells each (transported via refrigerated units) and a bottle of beer that has arrived here by sea in a 50C shipping container (usually having arrived via Europe where it first sat months on end, un-refrigerated) awaiting a home) then you really should stop posting on this matter altogether.

I did not say it would not work. I said my feeling was that it was not an ideal candidate for reculturing and to be honest I have seen nothing that has changed my mind yet. You've stepped it up? Cool. Let's see it make good beer and see a comparision with the same strain from a smack pack (of course your starter method and habitual under-pitching are variables here but as long as they are the same it shouldn't skew the results too much).

I look forward to seeing the comparison before you tell us how great a success your reculturing was.

[speedie]

you still allude to answer how! you wuold differenciate from the two!

[Bum]

No, I don't think I did. Not my fault your comprehension is poor. Look: smackpack = pitchable (depending on your preferences/age of pack/etc) amounts of healthy, viable yeast; imported bottle = I can't be certain how much viable yeast that has been treated in a manner I can't be certain is good for its health.

They both have the same risks once you start playing with them but there are greatly different risks faced in transit (as explained pretty clearly above, I would have thought).

Now unless I've misunderstood your barely coherent question can we please move on to whatever the next thing you'll want to attack me for even though it is you making the unsubstantiated claims?

[bullfrog]

To follow on from Bum; Speedie, I don't think anybody ever said that reculturing the yeast from an imported bottle was an unviable process. In fact, the only thing that I ever said was that the reculturing process could be treated the same way that one splits a smack pack.

Going to reference Rotten in a different thread and say that you love that yours is bigger than everyone else's [paraphrasing ends here] and for that you think that you're that much better than the rest of us. Most blokes would buy a flash sports car if they wanted to compensate in that way that you are...

[speedie]

This is not an attack on you
What I put forward is simple in words

Given that two brews are made from smackpack and bottle how would you pick (evaluate) the difference that is what I put too you
Don’t go on about fresh this and stale that old or hot
Be constructive and fair in assessment

Because I brew in larger quantities than most doesn’t mean I brew any differently to you all

The same theory applies
Enjoy your day speedie

Ps do you think that your statement re coherent is valid
I started to brew from a 20 litre bucket so bigger isn’t better
Just less time for more brew

[Bum]

Given that two brews are made from smackpack and bottle how would you pick (evaluate) the difference that is what I put too you
Don’t go on about fresh this and stale that old or hot
Be constructive and fair in assessment

Are you asking me to detail the exact but relative merits and faults of two hypothetical finished beers? The mind boggles. Ok, the smackpack one is awesome and the recultured one is yours. Good enough?

Given a fresh, well handled bottle and assuming perfect process is applied then I agree completely that the differences between the final batches may be minute. The recultured example will be an absolute minimum of second generation (but possibly much later due to brewery procedure) so they will not be the exact same yeast as you're implying but they won't be completely different. It might possibly have even improved - who knows? But my point is this - I don't think the above applies to your bottle (as I have said many times now). I hope it works out well for you but it isn't something I'm going to be rushing out to replicate.

[drsmurto]

Speedie - how do you even know what strain of yeast is in the bottle you re-cultured from? Have you asked the commercial brewer what yeast strain they use and if the bottling strain is the same used for primary fermentation?

The other issue is that with a smack pack (or pack of dry yeast) you know how many cells you are starting with and given a manufacturing date you can get a good idea of the viability - Mr Malty Pitching Rate Calculator is a useful tool for calculating pitching rates.

With a bottle you don't know how many cells you have and how many of them are viable.

That, Speedie, is an indisputable fact.

Hence there will be a number of variables between your beer and one that started off using a fresh smackpack.

[Bum]

Speedie - how do you even know what strain of yeast is in the bottle you re-cultured from? Have you asked the commercial brewer what yeast strain they use and if the bottling strain is the same used for primary fermentation?

The brewery in question states all ingredients used on the bottle (even down to the source of water). There is no specific information on the label as to whether yeast has been reseeded or not but received wisdom tells us it is the primary strain in the bottle. Wouldn't bet the farm on it but read it often enough without seeing any claims to the contrary to accept it. Speedie has asked here a couple time now if Rogue bottle with the primary strain.

[drsmurto]

Speedie - how do you even know what strain of yeast is in the bottle you re-cultured from? Have you asked the commercial brewer what yeast strain they use and if the bottling strain is the same used for primary fermentation?

The brewery in question states all ingredients used on the bottle (even down to the source of water). There is no specific information on the label as to whether yeast has been reseeded or not but received wisdom tells us it is the primary strain in the bottle. Wouldn't bet the farm on it but read it often enough without seeing any claims to the contrary to accept it. Speedie has asked here a couple time now if Rogue bottle with the primary strain.

I'll be honest, I don't read a lot of what Speedie writes as the horrendous english hurts my head so much I fear I might actually throw my computer through the window. When he learns the correct use of punctuation, spelling, the use of paragraphs and what the shift button on the keyboard does, I'll pay more attention.

[Bum]

Cannot say I blame you but I have this masochistic streak...

[warra48]

Cannot say I blame you but I have this masochistic streak...

I tend to mostly smile, and move on.

Much the same as I now do with the mother-in-law. She's well down the path of dementia.
Had to laugh really loudly the other day when mrs warra told me her mother considers herself to be in really good health, and is sure she is going to live a very long time beyond her current age of almost 86 years. When I heard the "good health" bit, I laughed and said, yeah, I agree, apart from the walking frame she needs to move a max of about 20 to 30 metres at a time, the total inability to make decisions or do anything for herself, inability to shower and dress herself, can't cook, can't watch television or read because it upsets her as she can't follow the story lines. That's apart from the 14 (yes 14) medications she takes everyday, without which her blood pressure would by now have left some ugly splash marks on the ceiling from her head exploding, and the diabetic hypo from which she would have lost consciousness and gone into melt down. But she is really healthy, and scared as to who will look after her when the father-in-law departs this mortal coil before she does.

If I can cope with that, and the stress that places on mrs warra, I can read, smile, and ignore most of speedie's posts.
In a way it's a pity. If the man learnt to express himself (even given his dyslexia), and type as DrS mentioned, I think he might have some useful information to pass on from his alleged many years of brewing mega batches.

Anyway, back on topic, I opened a smakpak of WY2124 this morning into a 4.5 litre starter. It's on the aquarium pump, as I don't have a stirplate or Erlenmeyer flask etc. Doing it that way has worked succesfully for me now for some time. Anyway, it should generate enough yeast for a 25 litre batch of lager.