2nd AG - lager yeast.

[AidanMatthews]

Hey guys,

Did my second AG the other day...still making a mess and loving it.

This one is a james boags draught clone (1st attempt) i decided to use wyeast 2007 pilsen lager.

When i pitched it at about 16'c i turned the temp up to 18 held it for about 12 hrs and dropped it to 12*c.

Its been 48hrs at 12*c i dont see much airlock action, i know lagers are quiet achievers but i dunno if i under pitched..


You see i looked at the wyeast packet and it said 100 billion cells, i figured thats a huge amount and pitched it without a starter (yes it was activated for 12 hrs prior).

Reckon ill be ok? I havent used 2007 before.

[squirt in the turns]

Hi Aidan,

I'll qualify the following advice by stating that I've only ever made one lager in my life: an AG Bo Pils made with Wyeast 2278 (Czech Pils). I made a 5L starter, and pitched cold (10 degrees). It turned out great (in my biased opinion). At no point during fermentation did it really appear to be doing much.

If you haven't made a starter, then you've probably done the right thing be pitching warm and cooling down later. You may have underpitched, though. What effect, if any, this will have will depend on a few factors.

How old was the smack pack? Did it swell fully before you opened it? If the answers are "young" and "yes" respectively, then you had more viable yeast and any potential issues will be less significant.

If you've underpitched then your main enemy is probably going to be diacetyl. You can do a "diacetyl rest", which means bringing the beer up to 18 or 19 degrees for a couple of days, during which the yeast cleans up the diacetyl. I believe the timing is important (I'm not sure why), but aim to bring the temp up when you're a couple of points away from the predicted SG. Also, as you take samples to do readings, taste them and see if you detect buttery flavours. If not, then a diacetyl rest may not be necessary.

100 billion cells does sound like a lot, but the concensus is that all liquid yeasts do better if pitched into a starter. For a 19 to 23 litre batch, a 5 L starter is pretty standard. You can chill to near 0 to floc the yeast out and pour off the starter liquid before you pitch into your main batch.

Hope this helps.

[AidanMatthews]

The yeast was packed on the 15th of this month, so its super new. It swelled up quite nicely

Planned on diacetyl resting when i designed recipe so it sounds all good to me.

Will hold at 18c for 2 days and bring down slowly to 3c and keep there for 30 days.

[AidanMatthews]

Hey guys my beer is stuck at 1018, i racked into secondary at 1020 ready for diacetyl rest.

After the rest it was still 1020 which surprised me, so i tried swirling and eventually repitched more yeast.....

Since pitching more yeast it has dropped from 1020 - 1018 in around 5 days.

Its been in a secondary for almost 10 days now total...

Temp is 12c

Is it well and truly stuck or just extremely slow?
Should i just start laggering now? Or leave it at 12c for like 2 weeks and check it again.

Next time im making big starter and using yeast nutrient i reckon.

[jello]

Stuck? or finished?
What was your opening gravity? and what were you expecting it to finish at?

[AidanMatthews]

1044 expecting 1012 -1014

[jello]

Damn.
Well i'm definitely no pro. I'd be guessing to say it was finished. Sorry, doesn't help, i know.
Does it taste ok?

[Oliver]

1044 to 1018 is just under 60 per cent attenuation, which would seem to indicate it's not finished. 1012 would be closer to the mark, which would mean about 73 per cent.

I trust you've done temperature corrections on the SG readings?

Oliver

[AidanMatthews]

from my table... and my hydrometer being calibrated at 20*C.

12*C is -001
so a reading of 1018 is actually 1017?

[AidanMatthews]

Ok so i took another reading today..

To my surprise first reading 1014 second reading (simply spinning it again) 1018, more spinninng 1020....wtf..

So i left my hydo on the counter... And came back after 30 minutes...

1st reading 1014 more spinning 2nd reading....1020.

Ive concluded my hydro is crap in cold liquid.... Once its back to room temp and dropped in the reading is always lower.

Warmed up the wort in the tube to 20c ..... Couple tests.

1014.. Each time..

So FG pretty close and im now slowly dropping temp for laggering..

[Sonny]

I wanted to make a black lager.

I had an Xtract Pilsener just finished in primary, racked it and took a glass full of liquid from above its dregs/trub and put it into a 1.5L container with a lid and two teaspoons of dextrose. It soon started to begin eating as I could visibly see the lid was trying to lift within an hour.

Pitched that within the hour into my vessel of black and within 24hrs she's bubbling away nicely!

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

[warra48]

Hey guys, my beer is stuck at 1018. I racked into secondary at 1020 ready for a diacetyl rest.......Next time I'm making big starter and using yeast nutrient I reckon.

Why rack for a diacetyl rest? You want your yeast there to help clean up. And you want it there to knock of the last few points once you are through the diacetyl rest.

In fact, if you pitch a large enough volume of yeast, at fermenting temperature, there is little likelihood of needing to even do a diacetyl rest.
For lagers, I only transfer to a jerry when it's all done, and ready to lager.

Totally agree with building up a large volume of lager yeast, and using yeast nutrient.

[AidanMatthews]

Hey warra, i have read many different opinions and kinda thought of a process which made sense to me but may not be right i dunno. I will tell you why i did what i did, and please if anyone can suggest improvements go for it, im still learning.

I transfered to secondary just after yeast production peaked, i figured it would suck enough yeast through at 1020 to start to finish ferment and diacetyl rest would well and truly complete it. Ie. 1044og, 5- 7 days primary, then when it reaches 1018 - 1020 rack to secondary, leave for 2 days to allow it to drop further then diacetyl rest would take care of the rest to about 1012 and lager in secondary. (no further transfer to jerry etc.)

Because i racked into secondary and the fact there is no trub i thought this would be ok to lager in?

Maybe i read to many forums and messed this all up i dunno but it made sense in my head hahahha

[AidanMatthews]

Also the reason why i racked into secondary specificAlly is because i thought leaving it on the trub for too long can leave undesirable flavours.


Edit,

Actually my next ag is going to be a bitburger clone,
Can you suggest a schedual, this time ill be using a 2L starter (slurry only in fermenter) and yeast nutrient.

[warra48]

I don't do many lagers, about 2 a year, and I only use liquid yeast. More regular lager brewers should have better information.

I build a fresh smakpak or tube up with a 4 litre starter, and pitch only the slurry. The brew and slurry is at pitching temperature, 9 to 10ºC. I let it ferment out for 3 weeks in primary. I might do a diacetyl rest for a couple of days, even though I don't think it usually needs it.

Then I rack to a jerry for lagering. I bottle from the jerry I've lagered in.

You should have no concern about the need for getting your beer off the trub within a normal fermentation period. I've had beers up to 4 weeks in primary with no problems whatsoever.

[hirns]

If my memory serves me correctly, I think it was Palmer in his first book who suggested that you need to rack the beer off the yeast. He has since retracted that statement somewhat by suggesting that it is only applicable in large scale breweries where the shear weight of the yeast on itself leads to compaction at the bottom of conical fermenters. In such situations the yeast under pressure then breaks down and leads to unwanted flavours in beer. Thus it is not as relevant to most of us with a 30l barrel fermenter.

Hirns

[jello]

There has been a lot of controversy within the homebrewing community on the value of racking beers, particularly ales, to secondary fermentors. Many seasoned homebrewers have declared that there is no real taste benefit and that the dangers of contamination and the cost in additional time are not worth what little benefit there may be. While I will agree that for a new brewer's first, low gravity, pale beer that the risks probably outweigh the benefits; I have always argued that through careful transfer, secondary fermentation is beneficial to nearly all beer styles. But for now, I will advise new brewers to only use a single fermentor until they have gained some experience with racking and sanitation.

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

Source: How to Brew by John Palmer
More http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2-3.html

[squirt in the turns]

In addition to Palmer's arguments as raised by Jello and Hirns, I will say that while racking isn't beneficial for homebrewers for the same reasons as it is for commercial breweries, there are still advantages. For me, when I was bottling, bulk priming was the factor that motivated me to rack. Another example is that a sluggish yeast that has stopped short of the desired FG can sometimes be roused into attenuating those last few points when the beer is racked (there will still be enough yeast in suspension even if it has been left to settle for a week or more).

A couple of weeks ago I racked an English ale brewed with the notoriously lazy Wyeast 1187 which had stalled at 1.017, close to the predicted gravity, but still a relatively uninspiring 65% attenuation. A couple of days after racking, it was down to 1.014.

If your sanitation is good, you've got nothing to worry about with racking. If you keg, a shot of CO2 from the cylinder into the secondary vessel before you transfer will minimise the risk of contamination and oxidation.

At the end of the day, although it isn't necessary, it cannot be said that the need to rack never applies to homebrew. You've just got to do what's best for your system and your processes.

[speedie]

put your hydrometer into water @ 20c and check reading should be 1000
if not adujst to what you have or bin it