SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

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SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Friday Aug 12, 2011 3:50 pm

I’d like to get some feedback on this single malt and (hopefully if I have enough Saaz) single hop Bohemian Pilsner recipe.

I've recently been playing with a couple of the techniques that no-chill benefits from, namely:
1) Mini-boil for hop flavour and aroma.
2) Using AG wort to make a starter, the entire volume of which can then be pitched.
Then I had this (frankly ridiculous) idea that I would combine the two (bear with me)…

The process would be:
*Full volume 90 minute boil, omitting late hop additions, aiming for 20L final vol
*Hot pack 15L into cube as normal, reserving 5L
*Cool the remaining 5L and store in a sanitised container in the fridge until needed
*Build a 2L yeast starter in LDME wort, chill, decant, bring to 10c
*Boil the reserved 5L with the finishing hops, crash chill, pitch yeast at 10c
*Pitch the entire 5L starter/mini-boil into the main batch at 10c when at high krausen (or as high as a lager krausen gets)

Potential problems as I see them:
*Only hot-packing 15L in a 20L cube: I’ve never tried this. By all accounts it should be ok, even with the large headspace.
*Storing the 5L of wort in the fridge: I don’t have a 5L heat-proof container to hot pack it in. If it’s kept refrigerated in a sanitised container and is going to be boiled again anyway, I don’t see it being an issue.
*The high hoppiness of the starter wort: is this going to do something funny to the yeast, or is the yeast going to do something funny to the hops?

Yes, a smarter variation would be to do the mini-boil at the end of the brew day, and pitch the decanted yeast from the 2L starter there and then, but I’m thinking of doing this tomorrow and I haven’t made a starter yet.

Anyway, my recipe (what little of it there is):

Recipe: Potential Disaster Bohemian Pilsner
Brewer: Matt
Asst Brewer:
Style: Bohemian Pilsner
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L
Boil Size: 24.08 L
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 7.2 EBC
Estimated IBU: 40.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.50 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 100.00 %
40.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (80 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min) (FWH) Hops 15.7 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager

The hop schedule will probably change. Water is unmodified Gold Coast rainwater. Because I’m feeling especially masochistic, I’m thinking of doing an enhanced double decoction.

Give it to me straight, guys. Have I lost it?
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby Tipsy » Friday Aug 12, 2011 4:13 pm

I've thought about this as well.
I was going to do a 24ltr batch, 22 in the cube and 2 for the hop starter.

I've been waiting for someone like you to give it a go. :D

Maybe the starter might scrub out some of the hop flavour??
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby Tipsy » Friday Aug 12, 2011 4:16 pm

squirt in the turns wrote:40.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (80 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min) (FWH) Hops 15.7 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU


Is this hopping right? Shouldn't the 80min be the FWH's
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Friday Aug 12, 2011 4:31 pm

Tipsy wrote:I've thought about this as well.
I was going to do a 24ltr batch, 22 in the cube and 2 for the hop starter.

I've been waiting for someone like you to give it a go. :D

Maybe the starter might scrub out some of the hop flavour??


Good to know I'm not going mad by myself :lol:

The yeast subduing the hops was my main concern. I don't think the high hop content would affect yeast growth or characteristics, though. I believe that part of the reason hops became favoured over other bittering herbs was because the envirnment they create is conducive to yeast growth.

Tipsy wrote:
Is this hopping right? Shouldn't the 80min be the FWH's


You're right, I entered the FWH as 60 mins, forgetting that it's going to be a 90 mins boil, then upped what was a normal 60 min addition to 80 to increase the IBUs. It will be more like this:
30.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (90 min) (FWH) Hops 16.7 IBU
40.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 19.0 IBU
20.00 gm Saaz [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU

EDIT: The Saaz is actually only 3.5% AA and a year old, so I will almost certainly end up adding some Perle or Magnum. Not so single hop after all :evil:
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby emnpaul » Friday Aug 12, 2011 9:08 pm

Sounds like a plan SITT.

I'm no expert on no chill, as I've only done a handfull of no chills and am only up to my second batch of AG (Munich Helles on the stove right now!) but the conventional wisdom is to knock back the timing on your hop additions by 10 minutes to compensate for the slow cooling. I,e: put in your 15 minute addition at 5 minutes and flameout (if required) into the cube with the hot wort. It's been working for me, so far at least.

I agree with you regarding the yeast and hops getting along but if you are worried then it might be worth a try.

Cheers
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby Oliver » Friday Aug 12, 2011 11:32 pm

Hi Squirt,

I have a consideration for you. I come bearing questions, not answers I'm sorry :-) And I may be wrong about this or have misunderstood your intentions but here goes ...

My understanding is that the primary reason for dry hopping as fermentation is subsiding rather than at the time of pitching the yeast (or thereabouts) is that the fermentation itself and release of CO2 drives off some of the flavours and aromas that the hops impart.

Would not this effect perhaps be magnified by fermenting a small quantity of highly hopped wort as opposed to a "regular" quantity of "regularly hopped" wort.

Does anyone think that an allowance may need to be made for this in calculating hopping rates?

As I say, I have questions, not answers!

Cheers,

Oliver
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby rotten » Saturday Aug 13, 2011 12:50 am

I have read something very similar before, however I drink too much to remember where :?

My concern would match Olivers in regards to what the hops would impart in the smaller boil.

Also First Wort Hops are added when the pre boil wort is hot, not boiling. That is why it is touted to be smoother in character as they are effectively steeped befor boiling, therefore retaining more oils (insert lamens explanation) . Ading them as an 80 min addition is not entirely correct IMHO as you will not have the same result, you will lose the flavour and aroma benefits.,
Cheers

good luck and please post results
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Saturday Aug 13, 2011 7:38 pm

No worries, Oliver. I don't think you misunderstood, and I was half expecting to just be told that I'm a fool and would be mad to try this, so it's a win so far in that regard. :D

Oliver wrote:Does anyone think that an allowance may need to be made for this in calculating hopping rates?


It seems probable that this should be taken into account, but I wouldn't have any idea how to calculate the effect the yeast would have on the hop character of the mini-boil. Experimentation may be the only way to determine the necessary adjustment.

rotten wrote:I have read something very similar before, however I drink too much to remember where :?

My concern would match Olivers in regards to what the hops would impart in the smaller boil.

Also First Wort Hops are added when the pre boil wort is hot, not boiling. That is why it is touted to be smoother in character as they are effectively steeped befor boiling, therefore retaining more oils (insert lamens explanation) . Ading them as an 80 min addition is not entirely correct IMHO as you will not have the same result, you will lose the flavour and aroma benefits.,
Cheers

good luck and please post results


Thanks Rotten. If I read your comment correctly, it sounds like you thought I was going to make a normal 80 minute boil addition and expect that it would work like a first wort hopping. The confusion came from me stuffing up the original schedule. The hops would be in the kettle with the hot first runnings and then boiled for 90 mins. I have left the utilisation calculation at Beersmith's default +10%, as per some recent healthy debate both on AHB and here (I was on the pointy end of one of drsmurto's "cloak of stupidity" comments :lol: ).

In terms of flavour, I believe first wort hops are supposed to be similar to a 20 addition. FWH contributes flavour that survives a 90 min boil, so it seems fair to assume it'll survive the additional 10 or 15 min mini-boil. I guess that in the context of this experiment, the effect that the yeast will have on the oils that are retained as a result of FWH (as opposed to the hops that are simply added to the boil) will be impossible to determine.

To address Paul's comments about no chill hop utilisation: I have found that shifting the hop schedule by 20 mins gives the best results for me. This would be taken into account, so what is labelled as a 60 min addition would actually be at 40 mins, and so on. What I didn't do is add 20 mins to compensate for extra utilisation of the FWH - I wonder if I should count it as a 110 min addition for IBU calculation purposes :? :?:

Anyway, as it happened, I didn't have time to brew today as planned. What I do have is a cube of Trough Lolly's SNPA clone, and 1.5L of reserved wort from brewday, which is destined to be a starter for some WY1272. I misjudged what was left in the kettle, so I'll dilute it to 2L which will also bring it to 1.040 (ideal for yeasties). I'll use this as the prototype mini-boil/starter combo, with Simcoe (maybe 20g) at 10 mins. I'll have a good sniff before I pitch it, and a sample a couple of days into the ferment. If there's bugger all hop flavour or aroma, it'll cast doubt on the ability of a concentrated hop hit to survive the yeast propagation process. However, if it turns out ok, it should work fine for the lager starter, the volume being larger and therefore any hop aroma loss being mitigated. In any case, the SNPA will be dry hopped, so if it's a failure, all's not lost. I'd rather this process fail on a simple APA than a beer with a 4 hour mash schedule. :)

Phew - sorry for the mammoth posts, folks.
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby emnpaul » Tuesday Aug 16, 2011 7:20 pm

squirt in the turns wrote:To address Paul's comments about no chill hop utilisation: I have found that shifting the hop schedule by 20 mins gives the best results for me. This would be taken into account, so what is labelled as a 60 min addition would actually be at 40 mins, and so on. What I didn't do is add 20 mins to compensate for extra utilisation of the FWH - I wonder if I should count it as a 110 min addition for IBU calculation purposes :? :?:



Hmm. Interesting question dude. I missed the debate on AHB regarding FWH IBU's but my thoughts are:

On the one hand the hops would contribute more IBU's as they are still in your wort and being boiled for 90 mins plus the time it takes to heat to a boil and then to no chill, so maybe add 30 mins, to make them a 120 minute addition.

On the other hand they (FWHs) are supposed to contribute a smoother, less confronting bitterness so therefore while they may contribute lets say 20 IBU, it would taste more like 15. To that end would you disregard the effect of the extra boil time and add them in at 90 minutes anyway? I have FW hopped a few times now, but as I bittered with a combo of EKG (4.0% AA) and Fuggles (3.6% AA) twice, and Challenger (4.5% AA) which are quite mild hops it is hard to say from my experience if they contributed a milder bitterness. I did however add them as 70 minute additions for calculating IBU's. From memory it added about 4 IBUs but I could not confidently say that I could taste the difference between 22 and 26 IBU in any event. It seemed about right though.

To add another element to this side of the arguement it has been said, and a quick look at Tinseth's hop utilisation table confirms this, that most of the alpha acid extraction happens in the first half hour of the boil and tapers off from there. By the time you get past 60 minutes you're mostly just boiling off DMS precursors in your pils malt. To give an example: in a wort of 1040 OG your hop utilisation will be 0.194 for the first 30 minutes boiling time. After 60 minutes utilisation is .252. Thats an extra .058 of alpha acids used for an extra 30 minutes of boiling. Add another 30 minutes boil time and you get a paltry .028 more utilisation. The difference between 90 and 110 minutes, in terms of IBU's, wouldn't seem worth worrying about.

So to sum up, if it was me, I'd put them into Beersmith or whatever program you are using somewhere between 100 and 120 minutes and forget about it. But it's not me, so if 110mins sounds right to you then go for it. Just wouldn't worry too much either way. :D
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Friday Aug 19, 2011 2:51 pm

Thanks for your input, Paul. The thread I was referring to (although I'm sure there are many others) is here. It does cover some of the science.

As you say (and I failed to take into account), compensating for no-chill when calculating FWH IBUs in a 90 min boil makes so little difference as to be irrelevant. The recipe I'm working with at the moment gives 21.9 IBUs for a 50g FWH addition of Saaz with a boil time of 90 mins. Adjusting that to 120 mins gives 22.3 IBUs, an additional 0.4. I would assume that the default 10% increase in utilisation in Beersmith is to account for the time the hops are in the hot wort before it comes up to the boil.

On the subject of finishing hops in starter wort:
I went with my idea of testing this on the cube of TL's SNPA clone. Yeast was WY1272 (All American Ale), SG 1.040 (diluted the 1.5 L AG wort saved from brewday), boiled with 20g Simcoe for 10 mins, chilled pot in the sink. Most of the hops then made it into the starter flask (it didn't look pretty), which was agitated on a stir plate for 24 hours, and the whole lot was pitched while active, on Tuesday night. Hop aroma in the starter was predictably noticeable.

I sampled it last night (48 hours later). Here are my conclusions so far:
- SG of 1.020, so the yeast appears to be healthy and attenuating well.
- It tasted great, although I don't know if there was as much hop flavour as a normal 10 min addition would give. Final judgement obviously must wait until fermentation has finished.
- Aroma was possibly somewhat lacking.

I am going to dry hop the APA, so the finished beer won't want for hop aroma. Coming back to the implications of using this technique for a Pilsner: obviously dry hopping is not really true to style, so I'll be relying on whatever additions are in the mini boil for aroma (plus whatever aroma FWH contributes). I will brew the Bo Pils next week sometime (expect more convoluted questions from me over the coming days regarding decoctions :D ) and go ahead with this idea. Thanks for your input all. I will update this thread as these beers progress.
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Friday May 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Just realised that I never updated this thread with the results. Both beers are long since finished, but I'll post what I remember.

The bastardised version of Trough Lolly's APA was pretty good. The keg got smashed over a weekend of camping in Byron Bay with 6 blokes, so it must've been pretty drinkable.

The Bohemian Pilsner was bloody brilliant; possibly the best beer I've ever made and certainly the best lager. Not sure if I achieved anything with all that stuffing around that couldn't be accomplished by cube hopping or other simpler techniques. It should also be noted that when I came to keg it, I realised I'd partially frozen it (misplaced temp probe in the fridge), and lost about 2 litres to ice. I ended up calling it AFP - Accidentally Fortified Pilsner (nothing to do with my love for the police).

I probably won't be exploring this combined mini-boil/starter thing any further as I caved in and got myself a plate chiller.
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby emnpaul » Saturday May 05, 2012 6:34 pm

squirt in the turn wrote:I realised I'd partially frozen it (misplaced temp probe in the fridge), and lost about 2 litres to ice.


Dude, you just invented Eispils. :)~
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Re: SMaSH Bo Pils (have I gone mad?)

Postby squirt in the turns » Monday May 07, 2012 12:01 am

I'm onto something, no doubt. It's going to be standard proceedure in my brewery from now on. Eisesb and Eisapa coming right up!

Actually, that'll be the trademark gimmick at my pipe-dream brew-pub: beer fortified at the bar by flash-freezing with some kind of liquid nitrogen contraption (patent pending), in whatever proportion the customer specifies! Want to turn a yard of the house ale into a shot of 44% death syrup? No problem!
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