HomebrewandBeer.com forum

Hi all
this is my first attempt at kegging and as instructed by a friend I've added finings. What temperture is best for the wort when the finingare in? (I keep the wort in the fridge with adjustable stat to control temp)

I've read a few pieces on cold conditioning on here and was wondering what exactly that was and how to do it, I only have the one wort and one keg at present (very amaterish!!)

Any help would be great.

Hi,

CC'ing is basically dropping the temp of your finished product (i.e. your fermented beer) down to low temps (5 deg or so) and leave it for a period. That's all there is to it. It's generally better to do this after you've racked the beer into a second container as it takes the autolysis (yeast dying and leaving off flavours) out of the equation.
I've never used finings, but from what I understand they offer similar benefits.

HTH,

Tim

Thanks for the advice tim,
dropped the temperature of the wort to about 3 degrees for a few days and it as clear as a bell now.

Having fun carbonating it, have done a bit of research and i think my first kegging attempt should have been a beer, but i'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers,
Dave

Cold conditioning must be done at -1C for 3 days or so for it to really be effective. Honestly I do not bother with finings or cold conditioning. For me an amazingly clear beer does not taste any better than one that is cloudy. More often than not, it comes out perfectly clear anyway

Kevnlis wrote:Cold conditioning must be done at -1C for 3 days or so for it to really be effective. Honestly I do not bother with finings or cold conditioning. For me an amazingly clear beer does not taste any better than one that is cloudy. More often than not, it comes out perfectly clear anyway

Hi Kev,
Could you give some further detail on why cold conditioning needs to be -1C to be effective? Typically cold conditioning/lagering can be anywhere up to 6C, in fact 6C can be better than 0C if you're not leaving it for long.

Also for me cold conditioning is more about improving the taste rather than the clarity of the beer.

Cheers

I don't see why -1C would work either. I froze a hefeweizen a while back while CC'ing too cold and I don't think it helped it...

Lagering (decreasing by schedule the temp from say 6C to 0C to supposedly improve the flavour of the beer) is different from cold conditioning (bringing the beer to the lowest possible temperature without freezing it to drop cold sensitive proteins and stabilise the beer).

A cloudy beer cannot hold a candle to a clear beer in terms of aroma & flavour (exceptions being styles like Heffeweizen where you want the character from the yeast). I'm sorry, but anyone that reckons they taste the same, either has a rather poor palette, or more likely has not tried the identical beer both ways.
Yes, a cloudy beer can taste good & a clear beer can taste crap, but that has nothing to do with the yeast - just good & bad beer.

Cheers Ross

Ross wrote:A cloudy beer cannot hold a candle to a clear beer in terms of aroma & flavour (exceptions being styles like Heffeweizen where you want the character from the yeast). I'm sorry, but anyone that reckons they taste the same, either has a rather poor palette, or more likely has not tried the identical beer both ways.
Yes, a cloudy beer can taste good & a clear beer can taste crap, but that has nothing to do with the yeast - just good & bad beer.

Cheers Ross

I think it hinges more on what you consider cloudy, than how developed your palette is...

Clouded with yeast is very different from having chill haze IMHO. I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that could blindly taste chill haze! The protein will actually promote foaming, and increase the perceived aroma and therefore flavour as well.

Hi Kevnlis,

I was reffering to cloudy beer as in yeasty & not hazy beer as in protein/chill haze. Yes, would take a better man than me to pick up the early onset of chill haze blind tasting. However, once the haze becomes permanent (which it eventually will), the taste (soapyness) progressively gets worse until the beers undrinkable.
Yeast in a beer dulls the beers aroma & flavour as well as imparting its own taste. Can totally ruin a good beer.

Cheers Ross

Will droping the temp of the beer to -1c get rid of chill haze?

Tipsy wrote:Will droping the temp of the beer to -1c get rid of chill haze?

In short yes, but if you freeze the beer it will make things worse! The goal is to get it as close to freezing without actually freezing it and leaving it there for at least 3 days.

It is my understanding that filtering doesnt remove chill haze, only yeast in suspension. Chill haze is due to proteins remaining in the beer after the cold break. Isnt that what polyclar and other finings are used for? I also thought that by doing a protein rest (ca. 50C) should alleviate this issue?

Extended lagering should also drop chill haze causing proteins out of suspension.....

My beers seem to always suffer from chill haze. Not too concerned but i will be experimenting with protein rests this year as well as seeing just what finings can and cant do. Might have to borrow a filter setup too just to see for myself hat the end result is.

I believe filters can remove chill haze if polyclar is used prior to filtering? But I do not own a filter and am not an expert. Perhaps Ross knows?

The protein rest breaks down the walls of the food stores so that the enzymes can more easily access the starches. If the protein rest is done correctly it will reduce the risk of chill haze and improve head retention by creating peptides and FAN. However the temperature and length of the rest are quite important in keeping the amount of long chain proteins and levels of FAN from becoming too high. Most of todays malts however have had the necessary enzymes for this step destroyed in the kilning process, so it is debatable as to whether it helps or not.

Kev, I don't believe dropping a beer to -1c for 3 days will remove chill haze, as it redisolves as soon as the beer warms up - But I'm happy to be educated....can you point me to a reference on this please?
Polyclar will remove chill haze. First you need to chill the beer as cold as possible, so that the chill haze will form in the beer. You then add the Polyclar which will then bind with the haze forming protiens. The resulting beer can then either be filtered after 10 mins to remove both haze/polyclar, or you can leave the beer for 48 hours for the polyclar to settle & then rack off the clear beer into another vessel.

I poyclar/filter all my brews, incuding stouts etc.. The only exception being beers where I want the yeast character eg Weizens, Wits...

Cheers Ross

I am not sure if it redissolves or not. Never had the need to try this theory out, and I am not sure where I read it to be honest. To be safe you are probably best to rack the beer at the end of this, preferably through a filter.

Kevnlis wrote:Lagering (decreasing by schedule the temp from say 6C to 0C to supposedly improve the flavour of the beer) is different from cold conditioning (bringing the beer to the lowest possible temperature without freezing it to drop cold sensitive proteins and stabilise the beer).

I've never heard that definition of Cold Conditioning (that it must be done as close to freezing as possible). Nor have I heard anything about the temperature having to be reduced over time in order for a process to be called lagering. As far as I am aware, the term "lager" comes from the German word meaning "to store", and was originally done in barrels in naturally occurring caves that kept a low temperature year round (but certainly nowhere near freezing).

I'd personally make the distinction this way:

lagering is storing beer in a cold environment where the idea is to allow the yeast to continue conditioning the beer as well as other effects such as dropping tannins and proteins improve the flavour and stability of the beer. Generally requires the use of a lager yeast: Saccharomyces pastorianus (aka Saccharomyces carlsbergensis) or Saccharomyces uvarum, which are believed to be originally derived from an ale yeast/wine yeast hybrid that can ferment beer at low temperatures.
cold conditioning is storing beer in a cold environment where the idea is to allow the beer to condition due to effects other than that produced by yeast. This may be due to the temperature being so low that the yeast becomes dormant (generally only an issue with Ale yeast: Saccharomyces cerevisiae), or if the beer has been filtered to remove the yeast.

I'd be pleased to update my definitions if you have any references.

AFAIK all lagering now is is done in the manor I described (reducing the temperature over time or by schedule). Of course in the days of using caves they were not so capable of temperature control. As for cold conditioning, I do not see any benefit to doing it any other way.

I thought most megabreweries used the continuous lagering method...

Time saver number three: The most modern lagering technique combines warming beer to convert alpha-acetolactate to diacetyl and a high yeast-to-beer concentration. First comes centrifuge, then pasteurization. The beer is recirculated through a column filled with yeast for rapid "aging" then filtered. The result is continuous lagering. It reduces lagering time from weeks to about a quarter of a day! Warning: Do not try this at home.

Gotta love megaswill technology