To dextrose or not to. Can I make light beer?

[Falcon1]

Firstly hi to all,

All forums only ever seem to talk about what sugar or dextrose to use, but none talk about using none at all.

Beer is just getting to expensive to buy and I've begun my first attempt at home brew, (About 20 hours ago) with a purchased home brew kit. I usually drink Hahn Premium light. I understand this to be a light larger. I would love to be able to create something as close to this as I can if it's possible. This is at only 2.6% ABV. Every home brew I've seen is up around 4 to 6% and even higher. I like to chew on a few without being knocked of my lolly in just two or three stubbies.

I'm of the understanding that say 1kg of dextrose will produce around 6+%, but if only 1/2kg is used it will drop it to around 4%. What happens if I use none at all? Can this allow it to still ferment ok and bring it down to around 2 or 3%? In my case I have started with a Toohey's larger for the first try. I've added the LME to 23 litres of water, used no dexrose/sugar at all, had it settled at around 21/22 degrees, threw the yeast and sealed the lid.

I have no bubbles in the valve yet, but I see that can vary in time from brew to brew. But I do have a light scum forming on the surface and condensation formed on the underside of the lid, so I asume that means some form of fermantion is possibly present? Everyone talks about bottling when the valve stops bubbling. But how will I know it's ready to bottle if I don't get any bubbling throughout the process? If I take the lid of periodically to check on it during the processing, will this harm the outcome?

I did the hydro thingy at the beginning, but not quite sure how to read this thing yet. To me it was reading 1.000 + 24. I asume that means 1024? It looks like the readings suggest it should have begun at more like 1030 to 1040. Is that lower start reading only becasue there was no dextrose added?

The only thing that has put me off starting a home brew for years, is that every one I've tasted around the traps, tend to have quite a strong or kind of bittery after taste. Can that be reduced or eliminated to a smoother, crisper taste. Is that taste coming from the dextrose that everyone adds?

The kit came with tablets for the bottling part. What happens if I cut the tablets in half and only use half per stubbie? Will that lower the ABV even further and still produce a nice beer, or will it just bugger up the whole show and end up with watery malt, with no fizz, (Remembering I've added no dextrose in the beginning).

Sorry for all the questions, but I am new at this a would like to try and get some good results early without having to throw away several batches before I can make one work right. I want to get the ABV lower than most want, not higher.

Thanks to all that may be abale to help me here.

BTW, if anyone knows what brew I should buy to get something that's as close to Hahn light as it gets, I love here from you also.

Kindest Regards
Brett.

[earle]

Welcome Falcon, I'll try to answer some of your many questions.

Firstly hi to all,

All forums only ever seem to talk about what sugar or dextrose to use, but none talk about using none at all.

Beer is just getting to expensive to buy and I've begun my first attempt at home brew, (About 20 hours ago) with a purchased home brew kit. I usually drink Hahn Premium light. I understand this to be a light larger. I would love to be able to create something as close to this as I can if it's possible. This is at only 2.6% ABV. Every home brew I've seen is up around 4 to 6% and even higher. I like to chew on a few without being knocked of my lolly in just two or three stubbies.

Lagers are difficult to get right especially without going to all-grain brewing for a couple of reasons including:
They have a very clean flavour profile and any faults stick out. These faults are easier to hide in ales and darker beers.
To get the cleaner lager flavour you need to use a proper lager yeast at proper lager temps, generally less than 10C. S-189 is a lager yeast that apparently ferments quite cleanly at about 18Chttp://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=842 Either way you need some sort of temp control, temperatures too high will cause off flavours even with the ale yeast which probably came with your kit.

I'm of the understanding that say 1kg of dextrose will produce around 6+%, but if only 1/2kg is used it will drop it to around 4%. What happens if I use none at all? Can this allow it to still ferment ok and bring it down to around 2 or 3%? In my case I have started with a Toohey's larger for the first try. I've added the LME to 23 litres of water, used no dexrose/sugar at all, had it settled at around 21/22 degrees, threw the yeast and sealed the lid.

You can just use a kit and it will ferment fine. I have a friend who does this for every brew. The problem is that it may be a bit light on in flavour. If you find this try decreasing the brew volume to say 19L, this will make the brew slightly more bitter as well though. If you can get your temp down a bit more your brew will turn out better

I have no bubbles in the valve yet, but I see that can vary in time from brew to brew. But I do have a light scum forming on the surface and condensation formed on the underside of the lid, so I asume that means some form of fermantion is possibly present? Everyone talks about bottling when the valve stops bubbling. But how will I know it's ready to bottle if I don't get any bubbling throughout the process? If I take the lid of periodically to check on it during the processing, will this harm the outcome?

The air lock is not a good indicator of fermentation. A lot of people including myself have thrown it and the lid away and just use cling wrap held on by the black seal from inside the lid.
DON'T KEEP TAKING THE LID OFF. Each time you do is a chance that you will let an infection in. Take samples for your hydrometer through the tap. Once you get three the same around you expected final gravity then you can bottle. Again, if you have temp control leaving it for a little longer will result in better flavours and clearer beer. I leave ales for 3 weeks and lagers for 4 before bottling.

I did the hydro thingy at the beginning, but not quite sure how to read this thing yet. To me it was reading 1.000 + 24. I asume that means 1024? It looks like the readings suggest it should have begun at more like 1030 to 1040. Is that lower start reading only becasue there was no dextrose added?

1024 could be right, it should be lower than 1040 as you have no extra sugars, the more sugars the higher the reading.

The only thing that has put me off starting a home brew for years, is that every one I've tasted around the traps, tend to have quite a strong or kind of bittery after taste. Can that be reduced or eliminated to a smoother, crisper taste. Is that taste coming from the dextrose that everyone adds?

This home brew/kit twang can come from lots of things including:
brewing at too high a temperature
it could be the yeast you are tasting, pour the beer into a glass in one pour and leave the last little bit in the bottle. You can get quite a clear beer this way.
Using too much (table) sugar, dextrose is better, malt extract is even better.
Old kits and extract can also have undesirable flavours

The kit came with tablets for the bottling part. What happens if I cut the tablets in half and only use half per stubbie? Will that lower the ABV even further and still produce a nice beer, or will it just bugger up the whole show and end up with watery malt, with no fizz, (Remembering I've added no dextrose in the beginning).

I assume these are carbonation drops that your referring to. If you add a whole one per stubby it adds roughly 0.5% alc, but you will end up with a much less carbonated beer but shouldn't affect the maltiness (or not) of the brew.

Sorry for all the questions, but I am new at this a would like to try and get some good results early without having to throw away several batches before I can make one work right.

Don't throw them. Drink them over time and learn from them.

I want to get the ABV lower than most want, not higher.

There's not many on this board that try to make rocket fuel, in fact there are a few light/mid recipes floating around but most are all-grain which won't be of much use to you at this stage.

Thanks to all that may be abale to help me here.

BTW, if anyone knows what brew I should buy to get something that's as close to Hahn light as it gets, I love here from you also.

A quick search of home brew shop recipes suggests the following for Hahn Light
Morgans Blue Mountain Lager
500g light dry malt
12g Hallertau Hops (Steep in a cup of boiling water and add the whole thing to fermenter)

Morgans kits are available at home brew shops as are 12g packets of their hops.
These packets of hops are a more expensive way to buy hops and are not always very fresh.
A much better place for hops and yeast is http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/products.asp?store=CB (No affiliation but many of us are happy customers)

Kindest Regards
Brett

Don't necessarily expect fantastic beer first up (though you could get something you really like). If you ask questions and read the stickies at the top of this forum you'll learn lots and your brews will quickly improve

Cheers
Earle

[Falcon1]

Well stuff me mushrooms, I think that's actually covered it all quite well!

Finally some good answers. I have read a lot of forum pages in the last couple of weeks, but couldn't quite find the answers I was looking for, but then perhaps the answers have been there, but I've just not understood them properly from being well undermilaged with this new found subject.

I can see that I need to play with temperature a little more over time. I'm in Adelaide and it is summer, (Apparently). I have the brew in my second bathroom (That doesn't get used). It's about the most central, coolest spot in the house for now. Different times of the year here can vary in temp quite heavily.

Well done Earle and thanks for the final tip on the Hahn light. Your right. I'll try this brew and learn from it. If It kills me, I'll never forgive you....lol. Then I'll try the Hahn recipie you've suggested. I guess at the end of the day, no matter how one persons taste is good, it might be evil to the next. It's all about experiment to find the taste I'm after.

One other thing that has my attention. How come bought beers don't have that sediment (other than that coopers rubbish), or is it that they do have that sediment at brew stage, with the exception that it never ends up in the bottle because the big boys take it from mulisquillion dollar fermenters where the slugde at the bottom never gets used. Or is that now the point you made about "all-grain" playing a big part?

Thanks once again fella. Love your work.

Oh, and I've slapped my hand and wont take that lid off again!

Brett.

[earle]

You may need to wash your mouth out over that coopers comment.

A lot of commercial beers are filtered then carbonated with CO2 so you get no yeast in the bottle. Coopers and some other very good beers are bottle conditioned meaning that they are bottled with yeast and some priming sugar to carbonate naturally, just like your homebrew.

If you get into kegging it is possible to use agents to help clear your beer, filter it and then carbonate with CO2. I do none of that but leave my brew in the fermenter for a week or 2 after fermentation has completed. This allows the yeast to clean up after itself but also lets a lot of the yeast fall to the bottom. There's still enough left in suspension to carbonate once bottled. Then if you can leave it a least a month before drinking again the yeast will clear to the bottom of the bottle. Finally, pour your beer into a glass in one pour leaving the yeasty bit in the bottle. this way it is possible to get a crystal clear beer with no sediment. If you drink straight from the bottle, each swig you take is stirring up the yeast. Also if you drink out of the bottle you are missing out on most of the flavour.

Yeast not only produces alcohol and carbonates your beer but is a major contributor to flavour. It really doesn't deserve to be maligned the way some people do.

Big brewers do have multisquillion dollar conical fermenters which collect the yeast and make it easy to remove. For several hundred dollars you can buy conical fermenters to use on a home brew scale. In terms of the yeast part of the trub (sludge on the bottom) it really make little difference if you brew from kit, extract or all grain.

[rotten]

(other than that coopers rubbish),

A South Australian bagging Coopers
I'm originally from Vic (VB land), don't hold it against me, and Coopers is my favourite commercial offering when buying.
Thumbs up to Earl, he obviously had some time on his hands today

It sounds like you have the new coopers fermentor which I beleive has a larger opening at the top than the old one (could be wrong)
If you choose to use the glad wrap method as I do, and as far as i know Earle does, you may need to use 2 overlapping layers to seal it properly.
Cheers and welcome to the forum mate !!

[Falcon1]

You guys are cool. I could get to like this.

Sorry to bag your coopers. I actually work some volunteer work behind a local club bar once a week or so and we are sponsored by coopers. They put in the tap and all sorts of goodies to help raise money, so I shouldn't knock them. I bite my tongue behind the bar and actually promote it. I also work for a transport company that shifts coopers products to Interstate. Even spoken to one of the Cooper boys on the phone a few times. He's not a bad lad. And don't get me started on VB. That's almost as bad as W/end draught. Here I am bagging coopers, but give me a pale any day over VB or W\End.

Again, it all comes back to what your palet likes. Coopers is by far a major seller in this country either the real deal or it's popularity in home brewing. So thumbs up to the Cooper family. They have come a long way and deseverve they're rewards. It's just not my prefered. After drinking my mainstay Hahn light and then trying a Coopers pale, the pale just tastes like sour apples to me. Don't hold that against me. I never drink a home brew straight from the bottle becasue of that sediment. I guess that's what I dislike with coopers commercial beers. Each to their own.

I got the brew kit from BrewCraft. It's was only the $124 (30 Litre) kit, but It'll be enough to learn a few tricks with first.

I'm already learning for my next batch thanks to you guys. I will try that Morgans Blue Mountain Lager next, and the glad wrap idea and working out how to lower the temperature a little bit and look into the filtering and maybe CO2 a little further down the track. Geeez, I better stop now or you two pack of bastards will want to come over a drink my next brew.

Ulimately, I want to get into distilling alcohol and learning how to make my own Jim Beam...But that's another story, another day. I'll learn how to make a good beer first I think..

Thanks guys.





So Earle, after my fermenting has ceased are you saying that I can leave that in the barrel another week or two if I wish to, or is that just the case with the way you brew. I was under the impression that bottling had to commence immediately fermentaion stopped?

[billybushcook]

Falcon1,
Edit:- You posted while I was typing
Earle has definately given you some solid advice there,

On the subject of using airlocks as a guide to fermentation or yeast activity:-
The next time you put down a brew, try this.

Step 1. Carefully sanitise all equipment including fermenter, Lid, seal, grommet, inner section of air lock & outer section of air lock.
Step 2. Assemble inner section & outer section of Airlock into lid with grommet & lid seal.
Step 3. Go to nearest open window & throw them to the shithouse!!!
Step 4. Go to the nearest corner store & buy a roll of Clingwrap........then you might want to recover the lid for future sanitising & storage aplications

The main reason being.
fermentation goes through roughly 4 definate visible stages.
Firstly- after multiplying cells, yeast starts to attack the sugar, made obvious by the thick foam (called Krausen) you get from 12hrs to the second or third day.
After that, it settles into it's mid stage when fermentation is in full swing & the surface is clean & clear with most types of Yeast. it will look like a pot of simmering dam water- still murky with thousands of tiny bubbles coming to the surface.
Then, about the 5th or 6th day it will start to settle down.
Into the second week it will look as if the bubbling has stopped. this does not mean the yeast has finished doing it's job - the beer is still murky like clay coloured dam water.
The final Stage is when the yeast starts to become dormant as almost all the sugars have been consumed, It will start to take on a deep, dark, clear apearance. The longer, (within reason) you let this stage go will determine how clear & bright the look & flavours of the finished beer will be.

Learn to observe these stages (without removing the lid) & you will have a good understanding as to what is happening with your beers.
Remember, different kits, yeasts & temps will all affect the duration & ferocity of a ferment but if you can see what is going on, you will have a much more educated guess at when it has finished & consistant gravity readings will confirm what you already know by sight & instinct.

If you are looking for something similar to Hahn lite, I suggest you think about a Coopers Lager Kit with 1/2 Kg dextrose, some extra hops added as above & a good, Neutral Ale Yeast like S-04 until you get more involved with temp control.
Keep it below 20 deg if you can but not lower that 16.

Dextrose will add fermentables without body (Alc % without Flavour) but adding Malt Extracts will add Alc% + body & Flavour.

Cheers, Mick.


Cheers, mick.

[earle]

I went to a catering shop and bought the caterers cling wrap. Its wider than the stuff from the supermarket so you only need one piece to cover the fermenter. It may be a little thicker too. No need to put a pinhole, the gas will find its way out. In fact apart from the fact that I can see the fermenting wort clearly, when there is an active ferment the cling wrap domes up from the gas pressure, when fermentation slows the dome collapses - a much more useful indication of fermentation activity than a hit-n-miss airlock.

In terms of leaving your brew on the trub once fermentation has ceased there is no problem unless:
- you can't control the temperature and the brew is at a high temp
- you have poor sanitation

[earle]

Step 1. Carefully sanitise all equipment including fermenter, Lid, seal, grommet, inner section of air lock & outer section of air lock.
Step 2. Assemble inner section & outer section of Airlock into lid with grommet & lid seal.
Step 3. Go to nearest open window & throw them to the shithouse!!!
.

This one made me laugh Mick. I can just see it now at home brew meets around the nation, the lastest sport - fermenter lid frisbee. Just like they have gum boot and plugga throwing at other events.

[barrelboy]

Boy, what a lot of good discussion and advice. Good initial reply earle.Take billybushcook,s advice, frizby the lid!

[Tipsy]

........then you might want to recover the lid for future sanitising & storage aplications
.

Hehe nice after thought.