Confirmation I am not stupid

[hyjak]

Now that I have your attention (for a small period anyway) just wanted to check something in regard to keg ageing.

Currently have an RIS in the ferment and due to my insatiable desire for beer I want to force myself to not drink it by placing it in a keg to age for at least 12months, this is guaranteed to stop me drinking it as I don't have a keg setup.

So can I just transfer to a clean and sanitised keg with an appropriate measure of priming sugar and seal it up?
Gut says yes and having read about the good Drs oak aged RIS I am pretty confident it is a winning formula, the added bonus for me will be that it will 'force' me to buy a draught setup in about 12 months time!

Cheers Gents

[bullfrog]

You'll want to flush the keg with CO2 and then burp it (release the pressure-relief valve a few times in quick bursts whilst the CO2 is pumping in) to remove any oxygen from the environment that could cause your brew grief with age.

I'm going to guess, however, that you don't have gas lines, disconnects, bottle or regulator, so unless you can borrow these you may want to consider bottling.

The other option is to prime the keg with maybe 100g dex and allow a secondary fermentation. This will create the CO2 you'd need and then you can just burp the excess pressure off after a week or two.

Hope it turns out a cracker!

[hyjak]

Cheers for the reply BF
It was sort of tacked on the end of the sentence and not in such detail but did mention priming the keg in the manner of the second option.
Only reason I am hesitant to bottle is I dont think I can make myself let it sit for long enough to fully mature to awesomeness (hopefully) and storing one keg will be a damn sight easier than a few crates of longnecks.

[drsmurto]

Sounds perfect to me. Bulk aging is best and carbonating it protects it.

The other option is to add only a small amount of sugar to only get some headspace CO2 and then after your aging period siphon it into a fermenter, bulk prime and.bottle.

[bullfrog]

Cheers for the reply BF
It was sort of tacked on the end of the sentence and not in such detail but did mention priming the keg in the manner of the second option.

Quite right. I definitely should've read your post a bit more carefully. Must've been too late in the evening for my brain to be properly functioning!

[squirt in the turns]

You'll want to flush the keg with CO2 and then burp it (release the pressure-relief valve a few times in quick bursts whilst the CO2 is pumping in) to remove any oxygen from the environment that could cause your brew grief with age.

I'm going to guess, however, that you don't have gas lines, disconnects, bottle or regulator, so unless you can borrow these you may want to consider bottling.

The other option is to prime the keg with maybe 100g dex and allow a secondary fermentation. This will create the CO2 you'd need and then you can just burp the excess pressure off after a week or two.

Hope it turns out a cracker!

Surely there is always a degree of oxidation (detectable by taste or not), in any homebrew (and probably commercial) situation whenever the finished beer is exposed to the atmosphere.

However, I am curious to know others' thoughts on this: when beer is conditioning in a sealed container (keg or bottle) and carbonating naturally, unless the head space is purged with CO2, wouldn't the pressure build-up in the vessel force not only CO2, but any other gasses present, into solution? I suppose in the case of bottles, those expensive oxygen-eating caps should alleviate this. With a keg, a blow-off tube connected to the gas-out would allow the head space to fill with CO2, expelling oxygen without forcing it into solution due to the pressure build-up. After the residual sugars are consumed, the keg is sealed and would have to be force carbonated at the end of the aging period.

Or is the effect likely to be negligible, especially in a big beer like a RIS?

[bullfrog]

You'll want to flush the keg with CO2 and then burp it (release the pressure-relief valve a few times in quick bursts whilst the CO2 is pumping in) to remove any oxygen from the environment that could cause your brew grief with age.

I'm going to guess, however, that you don't have gas lines, disconnects, bottle or regulator, so unless you can borrow these you may want to consider bottling.

The other option is to prime the keg with maybe 100g dex and allow a secondary fermentation. This will create the CO2 you'd need and then you can just burp the excess pressure off after a week or two.

Hope it turns out a cracker!

Surely there is always a degree of oxidation (detectable by taste or not), in any homebrew (and probably commercial) situation whenever the finished beer is exposed to the atmosphere.

However, I am curious to know others' thoughts on this: when beer is conditioning in a sealed container (keg or bottle) and carbonating naturally, unless the head space is purged with CO2, wouldn't the pressure build-up in the vessel force not only CO2, but any other gasses present, into solution? I suppose in the case of bottles, those expensive oxygen-eating caps should alleviate this. With a keg, a blow-off tube connected to the gas-out would allow the head space to fill with CO2, expelling oxygen without forcing it into solution due to the pressure build-up. After the residual sugars are consumed, the keg is sealed and would have to be force carbonated at the end of the aging period.

Or is the effect likely to be negligible, especially in a big beer like a RIS?

Unless it depends on what the gases in the headspace are mixed with. I'm no chemist, but there is two parts oxygen and one part carbon in CO2, and we all know that CO2 doesn't pose a risk of oxidisation, so perhaps the gas created from the secondary fermentation is enough to neutralise the oxygen in the headspace.

No clue if that's correct, just spitballing ideas

[Bum]

I don't know that it works like this under pressure, but in the fermenter the CO2 and the air already present in the headspace do not mix, the CO2 forms a blanket above the beer. Can totally see how pressure might change this fairly rapidly though.

[emnpaul]

I once contemplated this myself but only got as far as hypothesising that the available oxygen (roughly 20% of 50ml = 10ml approx.) is consumed by the yeast during secondary fermentation or the beer tastes good and I will drink it so WGAF.

I lost a batch to oxidisation once when I splashed a well fermented and largely CO2 free batch of beer whilst racking and remember the taste well. Having drunk some three year old bottle conditioned beers recently I am happy to say that I didn't detect any such flavour (or lack thereof). Of course there may be some degree of oxidisation in these beers, but not being able to detect it I'm not really worried about oxidisation in bottle conditioned beer.

[squirt in the turns]

Unless it depends on what the gases in the headspace are mixed with. I'm no chemist, but there is two parts oxygen and one part carbon in CO2, and we all know that CO2 doesn't pose a risk of oxidisation, so perhaps the gas created from the secondary fermentation is enough to neutralise the oxygen in the headspace.

No clue if that's correct, just spitballing ideas

The carbon and oxygen in CO2 are bonded by chemical reactions such as combustion or yeast metabolising sugars. Just squishing CO2 and oxygen together under (slightly) higher pressure in the headspace isn't going "neutralise" the oxygen. Sorry Bullfrog

I don't know that it works like this under pressure, but in the fermenter the CO2 and the air already present in the headspace do not mix, the CO2 forms a blanket above the beer. Can totally see how pressure might change this fairly rapidly though.

I did think about the whole "CO2 blanket" argument that is so often discussed. Your post made me consider this a little more thoroughly: as the sugars are consumed, a certain amount of the CO2 produced will go directly into solution. The rest forms this blanket, settling below other atmospheric gasses in the headspace, increasing the pressure. It should therefore be physically impossible for the CO2 in the headspace to produce sufficient pressure to cause the beer to absorb both the CO2 and any oxygen present above it. I guess this is only valid if the container isn't disturbed. Shaking that keg of naturally carbonated beer without purging the headspace would probably oxidise the beer.

I think I just reasoned out a satisfactory answer to my own question.

[hyjak]

Must say nice to see my OP become a hot bed for genuine discussion between members and not a pissing contest like can be found on so many other forums.
All very good information for the 'noggin'

[squirt in the turns]

Must say nice to see my OP become a hot bed for genuine discussion between members and not a pissing contest like can be found on so many other forums.
All very good information for the 'noggin'

Maybe more rampant speculation than "good information for the noggin" But good indeed nonetheless.

[hyjak]

information-speculation, only difference is perspective (and mental state)

[drsmurto]

There will be no O2 left in the beer an hour after adding yeast. There will be some dissolved CO2 at the end of fermentation. Racking beer into a keg/cube will result in some of this dissolved CO2 being knocked out of solution giving you a layer of CO2 over your beer. Purging the headspace is still critical though as there will be some O2 present due to exposure to the atmosphere. A layer of CO2 will not protect your beer long term as CO2 and O2 are miscible.

Winemakers who bulk age wine in barrels try to minimise headspace to reduce oxidation. Brewers need to do the same.

Oxygen is far more reactive than CO2, thankfully it is poorly soluble.