Adding bittering hops when racking

[qikdatute]

Hi all,

I was doing some reading around hop varieties when I came across the following topic: http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... php?t=4681.

Pretty much, steve_n was asking whether it is possible for you to add bittering hops to the secondary fermenter in the event that you have forgotten to add them when preparing the brew.

The two pieces of advice were to
1. Use isohops, or
2. Make a second bitter batch and combine.

My questions is, has anyone actually tried adding bittering hops at this point, and if so, did it work? (Or does anyone have any thoughts/insights into doing this in the event you have forgotten to add them)

Thanks!!

[Boonie]

Never tried it, but IMO if you boiled the hops in a pot with some malt, say 1-2 litres and added at rack, I cannot see why this would not work.
Wont get into the hop utilisation thing as that's not what you are asking

Not ideal, but worth a try.

Cheers

Boonie

[Kevnlis]

It will work fine. I do this with aroma hops all the time. Works great!

I add the required amount of priming malt to a litre of water (you lose at least a litre anyway when you rack it so it evens out in the end) bring it to boil to dissolve throw some hops in the tea bong for 5 min or so just to get them started, cool and put into sterile fermentor (I chuck the tea bong in as well just for added hopping), then rack the fermented beer into the new fermentor and bottle.

[drsmurto]

It will work fine. I do this with aroma hops all the time. Works great!

I add the required amount of priming malt to a litre of water (you lose at least a litre anyway when you rack it so it evens out in the end) bring it to boil to dissolve throw some hops in the tea bong for 5 min or so just to get them started, cool and put into sterile fermentor (I chuck the tea bong in as well just for added hopping), then rack the fermented beer into the new fermentor and bottle.

Wow, these things have another use?

[Kevnlis]

Aren't bongs great?!?!

[ryan]

I don`t think it can be as simple as throwing bittering hops into a secondary brew that is racked or about to be. If it was, why are we boiling bittering hops for up to 60 mins. in the primary and losing so much of the bitterness going up in steam, when we could get the same result by just chucking bittering hops into a racked secondary?

[drsmurto]

Think you missed the point there Ryan - the hops will still need to be boiled, preferably with malt extract, for an hour to extract the bitterness.

I dont see why you couldnt add it after if you want to add extra bitterness...

[ryan]

That`s making more work. I`d be increasing the amount of bittering hops in primary ferment to get what I wanted in bitterness.
{I realise that wasn`t the original poster`s question tho.}

[Trough Lolly]

I'm not so sure a 5 minute boil will give you the bittering you're after...
According to Glenn Tinseth's table (hastily reproduced below) a 5 minute boil of a 1.040 wort will provide only 0.050 utilisation which is only one fifth of the hop utilisation obtained from a normal 60 minute boil at the same gravity.

Table 7 - Utilization as a function of Boil Gravity and Time Gravity vs. Time
--1.030 1.040 1.050 1.060 1.070 1.080 1.090 1.100 1.110 1.120

0 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
5 0.055 0.050 0.046 0.042 0.038 0.035 0.032 0.029 0.027 0.025
10 0.100 0.091 0.084 0.076 0.070 0.064 0.058 0.053 0.049 0.045
15 0.137 0.125 0.114 0.105 0.096 0.087 0.080 0.073 0.067 0.061
20 0.167 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117 0.107 0.098 0.089 0.081 0.074
25 0.192 0.175 0.160 0.147 0.134 0.122 0.112 0.102 0.094 0.085
30 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.124 0.113 0.103 0.094
35 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.133 0.122 0.111 0.102
40 0.242 0.221 0.202 0.185 0.169 0.155 0.141 0.129 0.118 0.108
45 0.253 0.232 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.123 0.113
50 0.263 0.240 0.219 0.200 0.183 0.168 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117
55 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132 0.120
60 0.276 0.252 0.231 0.211 0.193 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.135 0.123
70 0.285 0.261 0.238 0.218 0.199 0.182 0.166 0.152 0.139 0.127
80 0.291 0.266 0.243 0.222 0.203 0.186 0.170 0.155 0.142 0.130
90 0.295 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132
100 0.298 0.272 0.249 0.228 0.208 0.190 0.174 0.159 0.145 0.133
110 0.300 0.274 0.251 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.134
120 0.301 0.275 0.252 0.230 0.210 0.192 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.134

I think the point that everyone has missed, and perhaps Ryan's question hints at, is that adding boiled and chilled malt extract that's been (weakly) bittered will result in excessive sweetness unless you've got enough active yeast in secondary to take care of this sugar addition, or you're going to add some more yeast to the batch.

Cheers,
TL

[ryan]

yea.

[Kevnlis]

I'm not so sure a 5 minute boil will give you the bittering you're after...
According to Glenn Tinseth's table (hastily reproduced below) a 5 minute boil of a 1.040 wort will provide only 0.050 utilisation which is only one fifth of the hop utilisation obtained from a normal 60 minute boil at the same gravity.

Table 7 - Utilization as a function of Boil Gravity and Time Gravity vs. Time
--1.030 1.040 1.050 1.060 1.070 1.080 1.090 1.100 1.110 1.120

0 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
5 0.055 0.050 0.046 0.042 0.038 0.035 0.032 0.029 0.027 0.025
10 0.100 0.091 0.084 0.076 0.070 0.064 0.058 0.053 0.049 0.045
15 0.137 0.125 0.114 0.105 0.096 0.087 0.080 0.073 0.067 0.061
20 0.167 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117 0.107 0.098 0.089 0.081 0.074
25 0.192 0.175 0.160 0.147 0.134 0.122 0.112 0.102 0.094 0.085
30 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.124 0.113 0.103 0.094
35 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.133 0.122 0.111 0.102
40 0.242 0.221 0.202 0.185 0.169 0.155 0.141 0.129 0.118 0.108
45 0.253 0.232 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.123 0.113
50 0.263 0.240 0.219 0.200 0.183 0.168 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117
55 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132 0.120
60 0.276 0.252 0.231 0.211 0.193 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.135 0.123
70 0.285 0.261 0.238 0.218 0.199 0.182 0.166 0.152 0.139 0.127
80 0.291 0.266 0.243 0.222 0.203 0.186 0.170 0.155 0.142 0.130
90 0.295 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132
100 0.298 0.272 0.249 0.228 0.208 0.190 0.174 0.159 0.145 0.133
110 0.300 0.274 0.251 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.134
120 0.301 0.275 0.252 0.230 0.210 0.192 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.134

I think the point that everyone has missed, and perhaps Ryan's question hints at, is that adding boiled and chilled malt extract that's been (weakly) bittered will result in excessive sweetness unless you've got enough active yeast in secondary to take care of this sugar addition, or you're going to add some more yeast to the batch.

Cheers,
TL

I did not infer 5 minutes would give any bittering! I said I use it for aroma addition and described how I do it. If you wanted to add bittering you would of course have to work it out for yourself (with beersmith or something) how long to boil the hops!

Also, this process of dry hopping and bulk priming that I do works great! It has never impacted the time it takes to carb or the overall sweetness of the brew!

[qikdatute]

Thats a good point Trough Lolly regarding the excessive sweetness unless you've got enough active yeast in secondary... Its funny - when I first started brewing alcoholic dirt water back as a uni student - I had no idea what the heck I was doing - no idea at all - but there is some science to it all in the end -and some good old common sense!

Thanks for the replies guys, answered my question!

5pm - im outta here - enjoy the weekend!

[ryan]

I'm not so sure a 5 minute boil will give you the bittering you're after...
According to Glenn Tinseth's table (hastily reproduced below) a 5 minute boil of a 1.040 wort will provide only 0.050 utilisation which is only one fifth of the hop utilisation obtained from a normal 60 minute boil at the same gravity.

Table 7 - Utilization as a function of Boil Gravity and Time Gravity vs. Time
--1.030 1.040 1.050 1.060 1.070 1.080 1.090 1.100 1.110 1.120

0 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000
5 0.055 0.050 0.046 0.042 0.038 0.035 0.032 0.029 0.027 0.025
10 0.100 0.091 0.084 0.076 0.070 0.064 0.058 0.053 0.049 0.045
15 0.137 0.125 0.114 0.105 0.096 0.087 0.080 0.073 0.067 0.061
20 0.167 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117 0.107 0.098 0.089 0.081 0.074
25 0.192 0.175 0.160 0.147 0.134 0.122 0.112 0.102 0.094 0.085
30 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.124 0.113 0.103 0.094
35 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.133 0.122 0.111 0.102
40 0.242 0.221 0.202 0.185 0.169 0.155 0.141 0.129 0.118 0.108
45 0.253 0.232 0.212 0.194 0.177 0.162 0.148 0.135 0.123 0.113
50 0.263 0.240 0.219 0.200 0.183 0.168 0.153 0.140 0.128 0.117
55 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132 0.120
60 0.276 0.252 0.231 0.211 0.193 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.135 0.123
70 0.285 0.261 0.238 0.218 0.199 0.182 0.166 0.152 0.139 0.127
80 0.291 0.266 0.243 0.222 0.203 0.186 0.170 0.155 0.142 0.130
90 0.295 0.270 0.247 0.226 0.206 0.188 0.172 0.157 0.144 0.132
100 0.298 0.272 0.249 0.228 0.208 0.190 0.174 0.159 0.145 0.133
110 0.300 0.274 0.251 0.229 0.209 0.191 0.175 0.160 0.146 0.134
120 0.301 0.275 0.252 0.230 0.210 0.192 0.176 0.161 0.147 0.134

I think the point that everyone has missed, and perhaps Ryan's question hints at, is that adding boiled and chilled malt extract that's been (weakly) bittered will result in excessive sweetness unless you've got enough active yeast in secondary to take care of this sugar addition, or you're going to add some more yeast to the batch.

Cheers,
TL

I did not infer 5 minutes would give any bittering! I said I use it for aroma addition and described how I do it. If you wanted to add bittering you would of course have to work it out for yourself (with beersmith or something) how long to boil the hops!

Also, this process of dry hopping and bulk priming that I do works great! It has never impacted the time it takes to carb or the overall sweetness of the brew!

And where would we be, I arst ya, without the good ole ! mark?

[Trough Lolly]

I did not infer 5 minutes would give any bittering! I said I use it for aroma addition and described how I do it. If you wanted to add bittering you would of course have to work it out for yourself (with beersmith or something) how long to boil the hops!
Also, this process of dry hopping and bulk priming that I do works great! It has never impacted the time it takes to carb or the overall sweetness of the brew!

No probs...if it works, then great!
Totally agree re aroma rather than bittering addition (which is, of course, the subject at hand) but the issue of adding more sugars still exists. In most cases, the yeast in secondary should do the job - after all, we rely on those same yeast cells when we carbonate the beer before bottling. I would expect, however, that the yeast would take longer to do the job since there's less of them in secondary compared to the relatively yeast rich environment in primary.
That said, I still agree with Ryan's concerns - and this is drifting off topic slightly - but we need to do a full boil in order to "key" the volatile hop acids into the sugary wort. Otherwise we wouldn't need to bother with a one hour boil since a shorter boil help will clean up the wort, bacterially speaking. And I am referring to a non kit and kilo brew. As we all know, kit and kilo brews require no boil at all...
My $0.05...FWIW
Cheers,
TL

[Boonie]

I don`t think it can be as simple as throwing bittering hops into a secondary brew that is racked or about to be. If it was, why are we boiling bittering hops for up to 60 mins. in the primary and losing so much of the bitterness going up in steam, when we could get the same result by just chucking bittering hops into a racked secondary?

Just to clarify what I was saying earlier about adding after the primary ferment.

Boil say... 250g malt with hops for the 60-30-15 minutes, you choose the grams based on % aau and choice of hop.

Cool liquid, add at rack. Some yeast will transfer to the secondary, enough to chew the small amount of malt IMO. Keep it at a temp that the yeast will still work at though .Leave for 5-7 days. Bottle, keg...your choice.

I still think this could work for bittering to an extent. We all know it should be done at the start, but the question was "Has anyone actually tried adding bittering hops at this point, and if so, did it work? (Or does anyone have any thoughts/insights into doing this in the event you have forgotten to add them)"

I reckon give it a go.....

Cheers

Boonie

[Boonie]

I did not infer 5 minutes would give any bittering! I said I use it for aroma addition and described how I do it. If you wanted to add bittering you would of course have to work it out for yourself (with beersmith or something) how long to boil the hops!
Also, this process of dry hopping and bulk priming that I do works great! It has never impacted the time it takes to carb or the overall sweetness of the brew!

No probs...if it works, then great!
Totally agree re aroma rather than bittering addition (which is, of course, the subject at hand) but the issue of adding more sugars still exists. In most cases, the yeast in secondary should do the job - after all, we rely on those same yeast cells when we carbonate the beer before bottling. I would expect, however, that the yeast would take longer to do the job since there's less of them in secondary compared to the relatively yeast rich environment in primary.
That said, I still agree with Ryan's concerns - and this is drifting off topic slightly - but we need to do a full boil in order to "key" the volatile hop acids into the sugary wort. Otherwise we wouldn't need to bother with a one hour boil since a shorter boil help will clean up the wort, bacterially speaking. And I am referring to a non kit and kilo brew. As we all know, kit and kilo brews require no boil at all...
My $0.05...FWIW
Cheers,
TL

Read this after my post TL..........You are spot on,

I think we started aiming for why we should do this at the start rather than what to do now

My 5 cents, see above