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Brewing impurities versus distilling

Posted: Monday Jun 08, 2009 1:59 pm
by WardM
I've been looking at home distilling, and doing a bit of reading ... getting rid of the foreshots, collecting the middle, and going only a little way into the tailings to get some desirable flavours, but not too far ... but home brewing is still my real game. My question is - aren't the same impurites, other alcohols etc present in the beer as we finally drink it? Sure, some may have settled out during conditioning, but we aren't subjecting our fermented beer to the sort of temperatures that would drive off eg methanol - and once our brew is bottled, all such nasties are effectively trapped. Is it just that these compounds are diluted sufficiently to not be a problem, in our typical 5-6% ABV product? Unless of course you really get stuck in a long session, when I imagine they do contribute to the resulting hangover ...

I guess what confuses me is that eg John Palmer says that "Methanol - Also known as wood alcohol, methanol is poisonous and cannot be produced in any significant quantity by the beer making process." And yet home distillers are told to discard the first 50 - 100ml of the distillate, because it will be largely methanol. Is it because the distillers "mash" is pure sugar / dextrose that creates more methanol, than with the fermentation of a beer mash from malt?

Re: Brewing impurities versus distilling

Posted: Monday Jun 08, 2009 10:19 pm
by Rudi 101
I don't know for sure, but I think it is related to the higher fermentation temps used when distilling. I read some stuff the other day about producing higher alcohols when fermenting at high temps and this is what is discarded when chucking away the first part if distillate, also why they use activated carbon filtration. When you make beer at too high temperature you get the higher fusel alcohols etc, it tastes like garbage. It is probably in beer (even good beer), but in really small quantities.

Re: Brewing impurities versus distilling

Posted: Tuesday Jun 09, 2009 11:06 am
by drsmurto
The other alcohols/impurities are a product of the yeast used by distillers. Its designed to ferment rapidly at higher temps but produces dozens of alcohols, from methanol (a poison) right thru to higher alcohols.

Beer yeast doesnt do this..... well... if used correctly. Ferment at too high a temperature and you will produce some of the higher alcohols (sometimes referred to as fusel alcohols).

All that being said, i started down the route of making whisky from scratch recently. Made an AG 'beer' using ale malt and peated malt. No hops added. Fermented using a good yeast - Safwhisky. Did a trial run thru a pot still and there was no methanol coming off. Ended up bubbling everywhere as unlike a simple sugar wash, one made from grain contains proteins that forth up like crazy when boiled! So i still have 10L of whisky wash that i havent figured out what to do with.

Hangovers arent a product of methanol in beer, they result from the enzymes breaking down the ethanol. They are also a result of dehydration since ethanol is diuretic. Ethanol also messes with the electrolyte levels in your body and lowers your blood sugar levels.

Re: Brewing impurities versus distilling

Posted: Tuesday Jun 09, 2009 5:59 pm
by leiothrix
Methanol is a product of fermenting cellulose, hence the name 'wood alcohol'. To make it you have to ferment some plant matter. There will be a little bit in beer from the bits of grain that fall out. There is a whole bunch in wine (esp. red) from being fermented with the skins/seeds/stems.

Re: Brewing impurities versus distilling

Posted: Friday Jun 12, 2009 7:24 pm
by Trough Lolly
I understand there's some debate regarding the presence of pectins and damage in terms of methanol production?
To quote Jay Mann in NZ:
Methanol (wood alcohol) is such a trivial health issue, in these sorts of levels, that there doesn't seem to be much recent study, unless the USDA has figures in some internal report. Since methanol is so widely present in plant foods, measurements of its occurrence are trivial and uninteresting.

As guidance, pectic substances (the major source of methanol in plants) amounts to 0.5 to 1.0% of the fresh weight of apples. So a 200 gram apple has 1 to 2 grams of pectin. Pectin starts out about 80-90% methylated, then during fruit ripening becomes about 40% methylated, because internal plant enzymes do the cleavage. I'm going to assume that the methyl groups are about 5% of the total pectic substance (a data-free analysis), so that makes the 2 g of pectin in an apple have about 50-100 mg of potential methanol. Assume that only half of these methyl groups are cleaved, so now we're down to 25-50 mg of methanol in one single apple.

Pectin, and it's de-esterifying enzymes, are found in nearly every fruit, from strawberries through to bananas. Apple juice would be especially high in methanol, since manufacturers treat it with commercial pectin esterase to get rid of cloudiness, and in this case there isn't anywhere for the methanol to go except to stay in solution.

Although pectin isn't degraded by mammalian enzymes in the human gut, this doesn't matter because plants themselves contain the enzymes. Moreover, bacteria in our large intestines will be able to cleave pectin in most cases, so any residual methylated pectin will form methanol in the bowel.

Really, the quantitative difference between the amount of methanol that causes blindness in chronic alcoholics who drink it as a cheap drunk, and the amounts of methanol in either apple juice or aspartame, is so great that it's really a scam to pretend that there is no difference.
And this from homedistiller.org:
Methanol & Other Impurities

Methanol is formed when fermenting beverages high in pectins - eg grapes and berries. Starting with a grain or sugar based wort, in a clean fermentor with a yeast culture from a well aereated source will result in small/none formed.
Carl from Hambletonbard (makers of Alcotec yeasts) details ..
Methanol, you will typically get around 2 or 3 parts per million (or milligrams per litre if you prefer) of methanol produced during fermentation of a standard 6kg type Alcotec - this is extremely low even compared to commercial products. We don't have a great deal of data on methanol because whenever we have tested for it we have got extremely low results.
Mike explains about the pectin ..
The methanol comes from the pectin, which mainly composed of methyl esters of galactose. When pectin breaks down, by enzymes introduced by microorganisms, or deliberately introduced, the methyl esters combine with water to produce methanol, so the aim should be to leave the pectin well alone if you can.

I think Jack would agree that what he means is that fermenting at a high temperature, or adding pectin enzyme, or trying for an abv higher than 12% all increase the risk of methanol being produced, so his advice about low temperature fermentation, adding no exra enzymes, and a target lower than 12%abv is all good stuff.

You are already being exposed to methanol from other sources. Some fruit juices are naturally high in methanol - for example apple juice can have 0.2-0.3% methanol, or if derived from pulp by enzymatic degradation, the levels can be 2 to 3 times higher.

Johan found ..
In http://archive.food.gov.uk/maff/archive ... orange.htm orange juice contains 10 to 50 times as much methanol as sugarmash.

The lethal dose of methanol is at least 100 ml that is equal to about 80000 mg or you need 27000 liters of mash at least to get that amount. Also from the webpage: "Dietary surveys have shown that an extreme consumer of orange juice drinks slightly over 2 litres/day. The estimated maximum intake of methanol based on this consumption would be 455 mg for a 60 kg adult which is below the maximum advisory intake of 600 mg per day for a 60 kg adult, recommended by the Department of Health."

So if we stay under 600 mg per day we are safe, that's the same as 200 liters of mash per day or about 70 liters of 40% alcohol per day if you weight is 60 kg.

total amount of methanol in mash expressed in ml is about 0.1 ml = nothing.

Jack comments ...
The Long Ashton Research Station did some studies that showed that ciders and apple juices clarified with pectic enzymes are higher in methanol due to the demethylation of juice pectins. The methanol content varied from 10 to 400 ppm in the test samples. I don't know which fruits are highest/lowest in pectin content, but apples are commonly considered the highest.

This is why all the old books on cider making refer to a condition called "apple palsey" - it's the massively painfull hangover from the high methanol content. In order to prevent this (I'm sure distilling the pectin turns it into methanol) distillers must fully clarify any fruit wine before cooking it. Rather than use clarifiers, put the wine into 2 or 4 liter plastic jugs (only filled half full) and freeze them solid, then thaw them out, this will result in perfectly clear (and chill- stabilized) wine ready for distilling. After the thawing is complete or maybe as much as a week after, the wine will be crystal clear.

Stephen Alexander reports that commercial spirits contain small levels of methanol. 'Food Chemistry' by Belitz&Grosch list an assay of about 50 different components of about 10 different distilled beverages. The US and Scotch whiskies had methanol levels around 0.2 to 0.3 %. Kevin Brown has scanned in some MeOH chromatograms from a column application guide published by Supelco of Bellefonte, PA. (a vendor for chromatography supplies). Check out http://amlc.uvi.edu/distill/meoh.html for details.
Doc's right - it's the yeast but also temperature control that we need to concern ourselves with here. You'll know what I mean when you make a bavarian lager with W34/70 and ferment the sucker at 26C!! Fusel city...

If you exclusively use sugar in your "mash" then I can't see how you'll be making tons of methanol anyway??? Enjoy your rum!

Cheers,
TL