Rinsing with Hot Water and Brewing with Ice

flosso · Post by **flosso** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 12:38 am

In the instruction book from the Bavarian Lager Kit I mentioned my previous post, there were two suggestions that caught my eye.

The first was that after you sanitise with bleach, you should rinse with hot water to get rid of the chlorine smell. Assuming they mean hot tap water, isn't this a big no-no?

The second was that you can use ice as part of the 23 litres of final solution. Has anyone tried this before and would it be sanitary enought to use? I assume they don't mean using the majority of the 23 litres as ice, rather use it to adjust the temperature to the desired reading before adding yeast. It'd still be a bugger to measure compared to normal water I'd think.

grabman · Post by **grabman** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 9:17 am

flosso,

I quite often use ice to bring wort temp down to level where yeast can be pitched. I use ice cream containers and fill with same water I brew with, alternately commercial ice is "food" grade these days so should be fine as well.

peterd · Post by **peterd** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 9:22 am

Like grabman, I often use ice to bring down the wort temp quickly. I do not use commercial ice. I sanitise ice cream containers, fill them with pre-boiled and cooled water, seal, freeze, then use them fairly quickly thereafter (suprising number of bugs in the average freezer - best not to tell herself: she may be somewhat offended).
I rinse after sanitising with previously boiled water: often still warm/hot, but not always.

Dogger Dan · Post by **Dogger Dan** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 9:27 am

You can't put ice in your wort

Your freezer/refrigerator is the worse than your bathroom for bacteria

You are adding a good culture which will activate in the nice warm sweet temps of your wort.

Take a read of Charlie Pap's book guys. Use it for cooling, not in the wort

Dogger

Reader · Post by **Reader** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 9:47 am

You can't put ice in your wort

With a few simple precautions Dogger, I reckon u can...

Like grabman and peterd, I also use clean ice to bring down the temperature of the wort.

Granted, there are bugs in the freezer but if u preboil the water, sanitze and air seal the container prior to freezing I fail to see how the ice can be contaminated after its frozen.

Fair enough Dogger if u refer to the ice cubes you throw your Scotch over

on the rocks you are asking for trouble.

I've used this technique successfully for the last 10 or so batches without an infection.

db · Post by db » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 10:28 am

i use 2x 1.5litres bottles of store bought unopened spring water that i put into the freezer before lautering.. by the time i've finished the boil & cooled the wort in the sink - once with cold water, then refilled with more cold water & 3 ice packs.. the bottles are iced up but still pour nicely. i havent had any issues. & i can usually get the temp of the wort down around 20deg within 40mins

db · Post by db » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 10:33 am

& i always rinse my fermentor with 2-4litres of boiling water after sanitizing.. i use idophor which apparently doesnt need rinsing but i do it anyway. if using a chlorine based sanitizer i would def rinse

r.magnay · Post by **r.magnay** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 7:18 pm

well I have used ice in my wort heaps of times and never even thought twice about it! I always keep ice in brew cans in the freezer of my beer fridge for eskies and so forth, I always figured that no bacteria could survive that low a temp. (course I'm a bit of an expert on that sort of thing

) anyway, from time to time I have a brew that gets infected, never ever connected the two, learned something new today!

Dogger Dan · Post by **Dogger Dan** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 10:37 pm

If you are going to float the bottle thats fine, you can sanitize the outside and go.

If you are using straight ice, it is bad juju and one is well advised to stay away from it

Dogger

Hully · Post by **Hully** » Tuesday Jun 21, 2005 11:38 pm

I have used ice a few times to cool the wort before pitching the yeast, as per morgans instructions.

Had no problems so far but think I will use grabman & peterd's idea of freezing in sealed containers.

I have been sanitizing with sodium metabisulphate then rinsing with tap water,cold. I picked up some brewcraft Pink Stain Remover, which I think is chlorine based, to replace the sodium, should I rinse with hot or cold water?

tommo · Post by **tommo** » Friday Jun 24, 2005 11:08 am

Dogger Dan wrote:
If you are using straight ice, it is bad juju and one is well advised to stay away from it

Dogger

sheesh

you blokes /shielas can talk

been out working in the mines and trying to catch up with all the posts
anyhoo...

I just have one Q on the ice thing

If ice = naughty

Is it preferable then to use as cold as possible water then just wait for correct temp.

How long is toooo long before pitching

ta

tommo

Post by **Oliver** » Friday Jun 24, 2005 1:02 pm

tommo wrote:If ice = naughty

Is it preferable then to use as cold as possible water then just wait for correct temp.

How long is toooo long before pitching

I think that all the things that have been said about the dangers of ice (getting infections from the freezer) would be applicable to putting water in the fridge to chill it. Of course, it's a different matter if you've got a plumbed-in water chiller.

One thing to do is to use as little hot water as possible. The instructions that come with a kit might say to use 3 litres of boiling water to dissolve the ingredients. But if you can do it in less (particularly during summer) you'll get a better pitching temperature.

Yeast should be pitched immediately. The longer you wait, the more chance that any bugs that have found their way into the wort will take hold.

Cheers,

Oliver

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Friday Jun 24, 2005 1:10 pm

If it's inside a sealed, sanitised container, I'm not sure that I see the danger?

I typically sanitise 2x2L PET bottles when bottling, then fill, cap and put in fridge o'night. 1st thing in the brewday (next day) sequence is to transfer said bottles to freezer. By the time I come to filling the fermenter, these bottles are starting to ice up and get emptied into the fermenter to bring the temperature down nicely after putting the kit/extract in.

Dogger, can you comment on the above?

Thanks,

Tony

Post by **Oliver** » Friday Jun 24, 2005 1:22 pm

Tony wrote:If it's inside a sealed, sanitised container, I'm not sure that I see the danger?

I tend to agree. I can't see the problem if it's all sealed up. Ice cubes made in an open tray in the freezer might be a different proposition though.

My previous message should have said "If all the things that have been said about the dangers of ice (getting infections from the freezer) are correct ...

Oliver

steveo · Post by **steveo** » Friday Jun 24, 2005 5:17 pm

Yeah, chucked a heap in a couple of times, just commercial ice I bought at the servo. No worries.

Dogger Dan · Post by **Dogger Dan** » Saturday Jun 25, 2005 2:28 am

Ok,

If you are using is cubes directly in the wort it is bad and I really don't care what the Bosuns Mate says. I will point out cold doesn't kill bacteria, etc, it just slows them down (I am being general here obviously, no need to google and point out the ones that are affected by cold)

If you are using a bottle of ice, that is fine because you would sterilize the outside of the bottle right?

Dogger

Reader · Post by **Reader** » Saturday Jun 25, 2005 12:41 pm

Dogger, what if the ice is made from preboiled water and frozen in sanitized and air sealed containers ?

Safe to use in wort directly ?

Serious question dude....

anti-fsck · Post by **anti-fsck** » Saturday Jun 25, 2005 9:45 pm

Dogger Dan wrote: (I am being general here obviously, no need to google and point out the ones that are affected by cold)

Can't ... stop ... myself Googling ... must ...resist.
Aah fuggit.

A few quick figures show:
* In ideal conditions (ie, nice, sweet, warm pre-beered wort) a single bacteria can turn into
9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 beasties within a 24-hour spell.
* In the freezer the bacteria are like an Aussie staying up to watch the World Cup played in England: a special state of suspended animation that's somewhere between almost asleep and dead. But not dead.

Here endeth the Google.

Dogger Dan · Post by **Dogger Dan** » Sunday Jun 26, 2005 2:31 am

I would stay away from using ice. You can't guarentee the medium is free from CFU's. Use cold water filtered through a Brita or another in line filter that can take them out.

Dogger

Dogger Dan · Post by **Dogger Dan** » Monday Jun 27, 2005 12:49 am

Sunday with nothing to do

From "The HomeBrewers Companion"

Using Ice

"If you live in a climate where tap water isn't cold enough to chill your wort adequately, then sanitary methods of cooling with ice during the final temperature drop can be used. Never add ice directly to your wort. Ice exposed to the air in your freezer will be contaminated."

He then goes on to explain how to double bag water, freeze it and then use it for cooling.

Note that he is saying to use ice only IFF it comes into indirect contact with your wort.

Dogger