beer finings

[monkey]

hi wonder if anyone can help

i got 2 questions :

when do i add my beer finings and if i use beer finings do i have to add gelatin at the 2nd fermenter stage.

and my 2nd question is :

in my instructions it says syphon your beer into the carboy after 4 days and thats where is says u add the gelatin why do u have to do this

thanks 4 ur help guys

[Dogger Dan]

I normally add mine when the fermentation has stopped and the yeast is dropping out, just like wine. This makes sense if you think that the finings only work for so long and then are dud, ie they don't work forever. So, making more yeast after adding the finings is not really going to do anything and you loose the effect of the finings.

This kind of answers both your questions I think

Dogger

[Evo]

As a homebrewer I really don't understand why you would bother with finings. I mean, you're making an all natural beer, malt, hops, water, yeast, all nice stuff, then putting dried cow hooves or dried sturgeon bladder in it just to make it clear. Yum. There are many other ways of getting clear beer - use a more flocculant yeast (saflager clears brilliantly), chill your beer before racking it etc etc.

That, or drink your beer like Thomas Cooper intended. "Cloudy but fine". The yeast is supposed to be high in vitamin B which is good for hangovers (although this may be an old drinkers tale).

[Dogger Dan]

AH Evo,

It is all about apperence man. Actually, if you are carbonating in a bottle then it will do you no good as you reactivate the yeast. I keg mine and I like it clear if I can. Normally I filter it but if it isn't clearing sometimes it needs a bit of help. (I find that with honey beers). And if you are using that packet under the lid (cause you can't get Saf or a good liquid yeast).

Someone told me it was hard to get beer cold during summer so I guess you got to do something to help make it happen. I don't neccessarily believe it or follow it, I just know you can do it.

Dogger

[Evo]

Hey Dogger,

Yeah, I know what you mean re the appearance thang. A lot of people drink with their eyes. Being a Coopers baby (Coopers Sparkling is traditionally unfiltered and cloudy, hence their cloudy but fine slogan), it really doesn't bother me at all. That said, I did once brew a brown ale and left it unfiltered and it looked disgusting.

I can see why some people would use finings, but as a homwbrewer, I think it is our duty to make good preservative free, additive free beer. God knows there's enough of that pap here in Australia passing itself off as beer.

I vaguely remember you saying in another thread that you filtered your beer with an aquarium filter. Did you say this (maybe I had been drinking), and if so, can you give me more of an idea on it ? Is it safe ? If you didn't in fact write that, well, forget everything you just read

[Dogger Dan]

No, I did and this was back in my dark ages. I used a submersible filter which i was sharing with the fish at the time and just a regular aquarium filter.

It sort of worked but then I bought a real filter for myself. Dam fish kept floating.

Dogger

[bmorey]

Cloudy Coopers is a fault with serving. It should be served clear and this is easily achieved with a little care.

The only reason Coopers advertise 'cloudy but fine' is to make those cack-handed purchasers who haven't got a clue how naturally-gassed beer should handled and served feel that they are not complete twits.

[Evo]

So if Coopers MAKE the beer and they say it should be served cloudy (for whatever conceived reason), then just who is saying it should be served clear ?

And what about Coopers on tap ? Hasn't been left to settle long enough ?

[bmorey]

So if Coopers MAKE the beer and they say it should be served cloudy (for whatever conceived reason), then just who is saying it should be served clear ?

And what about Coopers on tap ? Hasn't been left to settle long enough ?

Clarity is a rating point in beer judging. Ales and lagers should be clear. If not they are faulty and will be marked down. Competition entries in this category have usually been decanted into a fresh bottle, topped up and re-capped so there is no chance of cloudiness. I always avoid serving cloudy beer to guests - it's just not done and make the home brewer look amateurish.

Coopers advice on its website to stir up the beer and make sure it is really cloudy is aimed at the non-knowledgeable beer drinker - making a virtue of necessity. The average punter buys it from the bottleshop and drinks it straight away. Gee, if Coopers says it's meant to be muddy-looking, they must be right. Duh. If Coopers gave the correct advice, viz., to store in the fridge for a few hours and decant carefully, they would lose sales. In fact, didn't Coopers actually give this advice some 30 years ago?

As to the second point, I wasn't aware Coopers on tap was a cask-conditioned beer; if it is, it is faulty if it is cloudy. Cask-conditioned ales should be allowed to settle at least 12 hours and must drop bright and clear.

[Guest]

Hmmm... I like your conspiracy theory on Coopers and why they do what they do, but to me it's just that. Coopers kegs are cask conditioned (or keg conditioned), hence the sediment. I've never had one off tap that wasn't cloudy, so using your logic ALL their kegs are faulty.

What about weizens ? Traditionally cloudy. Have the German's been wrong all these years ? If so, you tell them

[Evo]

Sorry, the above was from me (at another location).

[bmorey]

Hmmm... I like your conspiracy theory on Coopers and why they do what they do, but to me it's just that. Coopers kegs are cask conditioned (or keg conditioned), hence the sediment. I've never had one off tap that wasn't cloudy, so using your logic ALL their kegs are faulty.

What about weizens ? Traditionally cloudy. Have the German's been wrong all these years ? If so, you tell them ;)

Their kegs aren't faulty - storage and serving is faulty. There is just no way to put a gloss on this: cloudy naturally-conditioned ales result from slack serving practices. Coopers should be taken out and shot for permitting it. It really does make them look as if they don't know about beer. Ales are clear, by definition. This is how cask-conditioned ales should be treated and served: http://www.realalefestival.com/aboutreal.html

The cloudiness of weizens, unlike ales, is characteristic. It is mostly a protein haze, a result of the high wheat content. There is also a yeast sediment cloudiness. Haze is allowed under judging rules for this type. In any event there are clear weizans - the haze is removed by filtering, eg, the krystal type.

[Evo]

So if it's "slack serving practice", then EVERY pub I've ever had a Coopers on tap is practicing slack serving. If Coopers say THEIR ale is supposed to be served with "its famous cloudy sediment", is that not enough. I mean they invented the beer.

Saying it's slack serving practice is pretty silly too. I mean surely the powers that be at Coopers brewery would realise that every pub that serves their beer is serving it cloudy. If this cloudiness wasn't what they had intended it wouldn't be hard to filter their keg beer and stop it happening.

I've had a Coopers clone sitting in my fridge in a keg now for about a month. I used the yeast from two longnecks as a starter. The beer still pours cloudy. My other beers (using different yeast) pour as clear as a krystalweizen . It is NOT a flocculant yeast.

So BMorey, have you ever been served a Coopers on tap that wasn't cloudy ? Also, and the point of the thread, do you use finings in your beers ? Oh, and are you a Prefered Old Mate, BMorey ?

[thehipone]

Coopers is not dry hopped. Cooper's is not served slightly warm. Sparkling ale certainly isnt slightly flat. and its not hand pumped. Cooper's is not cask conditioned ale. How can you judge a beer based on the guidelines of another style?

"Waiter, my stout is a little light"
"Sir, thats a lager"

And besides, try pouring a cooper's in australia with the flat, warm characteristics of a cask conditioned ale and telling people "this is how its supposed to be". On a summer day in QLD you will be cursed. IN adelaide, you will likely be shot.

CAMRA is trying to preserve a part of ENGLISH culture. That does not mean that their "real ale" rules apply to every beer in every other country.

"Ales are clear by definition"
WRONG. Ales are top fermented by definition. nothing more, nothing less.
As has been stated before, hefeweizen is an ALE and not clear. There are tons more examples of cloudy ales.

I think bmorey is just trying to stir sh^&* up.

So, now that I have had my rebuttal, lets get back to the thread, finings.

I use gelatin finings in certain styles, most notably north american lagers, but for stuff like stouts and porters, why bother. And I add them after the primary fermentation has slowed down, just like dogger says. I do use irish moss in the boil of my AG batches, but I dont really think that's what the original question was asking about.

[dawg waterer]

I have not yet used finings in any of my brews, as they are generally reasonable clear by the time they are carefully decanted. Can finings absorb or mute the aroma/flavour characteristics of the beer? This is something that is sometimes mentioned in winemaking documentation.

Cheers,
Richard.

[wombat]

i read that gelatin finings can take some tannins from beer. personally, i don't find that a terrible thing.
-wombat

[Dogger Dan]

Richard,

Not to the point that it could be noticable, I think with wine it happens because you are de gassing anyway and the finings get the credit

Dogger

[Marty]

You will generally find with a light delicate wine like Pinot Noir that most wineries will not filter the wine (using finings) as it does take away some flavours. All wine is racked at least once to remove sediment.

Marty

[Oliver]

Chaps,

I posted the following message on the Cooper's Club messageboard:

Hello Cooper's people.

Would any of you care to comment on the debate raging at http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/forum/vi ... .php?t=156 about whether Cooper's should be served cloudy or clear? (You'll need to scroll about halfway down the page to the first post from bmorey.)

A lot reckon it should be cloudy, but one guy in particular is adamant it should be clear, as the Campaign for Real Ale http://www.camra.org.uk in the UK says real ale should be served clear. However, "real ale" is also conditioned in wooden casks, dry hopped, hand drawn and served at room temperature. Cooper's ain't.

What's the verdict from Cooper's?

And got the following reply from Paul at Cooper's:

Oliver,

You have answered your own question.

As you know, we produce kegged bright beer (light and draught) and conditioned beer (mild, pale, sparkling, dark and stout).

We expect hoteliers to serve our conditioned beer on tap with a cloudy appearance.

Hope this ends the debate!

Oliver

[Clintsc9]

One of the art forms I enjoyed watching in S.A. during the early eighties, when Coopers wasn't available on tap, was the different ways bartenders would make sure your Coopers Sparlking Ale from the bottle was properly mixed, without excess head.
A common way was to roll the bottle back and forth on the bar before opening, but the best I saw was in a pub at Mt Gambier. The bartender placed the glass over the top of the opened bottle, upended the lot, then drew the bottle out of the glass, timing it perfectly so it was just inside the head. Result, perfectly mixed cloudy beer with correct sized head.
I tried it once and failed miserably with beer everywhere so I reverted to the bottle-rolling technique.
I have tried Coopers without mixing and it is just not the same.